Monks in Pathfinder 2: Fighting Styles & Ki

In the latest Pathfinder 2nd Edition news, we get a look at the monk! This is quite a long entry, with details on class features, class feats, fighting styles, and ki.

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• Monks choose between Str or Dex for their key ability
• Start with expert proficiency in all saving throws, and begin trained in unarmed attacks
• Powerful Fist increases their unarmed damage die size
• No Wis bonus to AC
• Expert proficiency in unarmored defense at 1st level, master at 13th, legendary at 17th
• Flurry of Blows (1st level) makes two attacks with an unarmed attack action (second at -4)
• Incredible Movement (3rd level) increases speed by 10' (+5'/3 levels) when unarmored
• Magic Strikes (3rd level) makes unarmed attacks magical and increases proficiency to expert
• Metal Strikes (5th level) makes unarmed attacks act as cold iron and silver
• Path to Perfection (7th level) increases a save's proficiency to master, and at 11th level treat a successful save as a critical success, and at 15th level increase another save to master or the first save to legendary
• Fierce Flurry (9th level) increases flurry of blows damage dice when both attacks hit
• Adamantine Strikes (17th level) makes unarmed attacks act as adamantine
• Perfected Form (19th level) makes any unarmed attack which rolls less than 10 be treated as a 10
• Monk feats --
  • Monastic Weaponry (1st level) use unarmed attack proficiency with simple/martial monk weapons
  • Brawling Focus (4th level) critical specialisation effect for brawling weapon group (crits cause a condition)
  • Stunning Fist require a save or be flat-footed (or stupefied if critically failed)
  • Deflect Arrow (4th level) reaction gives +4 AC vs a ranged attack
  • Flying Kick uses two actions to jump and strike
  • Ghost Strike uses two actions to target Touch AC
  • Wall Run up vertical surfaces at full speed.
• Fighting styles --
  • Crane Stance (1st level) gives +1 AC and increased jumping, but only allows crane wing attacks which do 1d6 damage
  • Crane Flutter is a reaction which increases AC against a melee attack and allows an immediate counter attack at -4
  • Mastery of Many Styles (16th level) allows you to enter stances as a free action rather than an action
• Ki --
  • Ki powers are spells which use Spell Points (equal to Wis modifier)
  • Ki Strike is a verbal free action which give s+1 to an attack roll
  • Abundant Step is a teleport
  • Ki Blast is a cone of force
  • Quivering Palms (16th level) allows you to slay your victim if they critically fail a save, or stun them on a normal fail

 

[mewzard]

Wasn't really worried about item enhancements. A 1st lvl PF1 monk does 1d6 unarmed. At 4th lvl, that goes to 1d8 and 1d10 at 8th. Oddly, this made the special monk weapons mostly pointless as they capped at 1d6. Saw no mention in this write up or the Paizo blog on any damage progression by level.

Wonder if the PF2 monk will have the same issues with unarmed damage vs monk weapon damage?

Well, given style feats change your unarmed attack properties, including what damage dice they do, they might not need to give them that kind of progression.

Also, with how they made Greatswords 1d12 instead of 2d6, I think they were trying to remove multiple dice on regular, non +X weapons, so everyone adds the same number of dice for the same number of plusses. Meaning, even if they did keep progression, I doubt it'd go above 1d12 (and probably not even that high, like a 1d8 or a 1d10).

I suppose that could make Monk Weapons more valuable (only costs you a feat to use them and they work with your monk abilities). Though style feats can give you options for hand to hand characters.

 

[SuperSam888]

I'm liking the 2e Monk so far. Very nice.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

[*]No Wis bonus to AC
[*]Expert proficiency in unarmored defense at 1st level, master at 13th, legendary at 17th

I am happy to see this, but I hope it's not the dawn of the 14 or 15 AC monk at 1st-level. I am playing a brawler right now. My starting AC was 17 (Dex and chain shirt), which is generally higher than a rogue, roughly equal to a ranger and lower than a fighter, so it felt right. I doubt a starting monk gets +4 to AC, however. This looks like monks will start with horribly low AC and (possibly) end up with untouchable ACs at high levels, and I'm more interested in generally balanced ACs across the whole game.

[*]Flurry of Blows (1st level) makes two attacks with an unarmed attack action (second at -4)

I hope that's not a -4 penalty on one of those attacks at 1st-level. You will miss a lot. Furthermore you can't even roll both d20s at the same time since their bonuses won't match.

[*]Flying Kick uses two actions to jump and strike

As a fan of the d20 Modern Martial Artist, I always like Flying Kick. Being able to charge 80 feet* and kick someone was pretty cool (using acrobatic skills to laugh at terrain obstacles in the meantime); that was critical to not getting shot

*It could have been 90 feet, had I taken two more Fast levels.

[*]Crane Flutter is a reaction which increases AC against a melee attack and allows an immediate counter attack at -4

A reaction attack is powerful enough (and why at -4?). We don't really need a remake of the controversial Crane's Wing. I think both the AC increase and attack penalty can go away. It could be a stance competing with other cool monk abilities.

[*]Ki Blast is a cone of force

That should be a ball or beam for, um, balance reasons. Yeah.

What is the BAB? Can you ever move and flurry in the same round?

 

[mellored]

What is the BAB?

Stat + training + level.
Untrained (-2)
Trained (+0)
Expert (+1)
Master (+2)
Legendary (+3)

It seems to be the same for everyone. And being "expert" or "legendary" is more about giving you more feat options rather than bigger bonuses.

Can you ever move and flurry in the same round?

Yes.

You get 3 actions, and 1 reaction.
Attacking is 1 action. With -5 (-4 for monks) penalties for each extra attack on the same turn. (so 0/-4/-8)
Moving and such is 1 action.
Most spells take 2 actions, but it varies.

Flurry of blows is 1 action to attack twice (0/-4), and you still have 2 actions to do other stuff, like moving, quivering palm, or a ki blast. Or just attack 4 times, but with the scaling penalties (0/-4/-8/-12) your encouraged to do other things.

 

[mewzard]

I am happy to see this, but I hope it's not the dawn of the 14 or 15 AC monk at 1st-level. I am playing a brawler right now. My starting AC was 17 (Dex and chain shirt), which is generally higher than a rogue, roughly equal to a ranger and lower than a fighter, so it felt right. I doubt a starting monk gets +4 to AC, however. This looks like monks will start with horribly low AC and (possibly) end up with untouchable ACs at high levels, and I'm more interested in generally balanced ACs across the whole game.

I hope that's not a -4 penalty on one of those attacks at 1st-level. You will miss a lot. Furthermore you can't even roll both d20s at the same time since their bonuses won't match.

As a fan of the d20 Modern Martial Artist, I always like Flying Kick. Being able to charge 80 feet* and kick someone was pretty cool (using acrobatic skills to laugh at terrain obstacles in the meantime); that was critical to not getting shot

*It could have been 90 feet, had I taken two more Fast levels.

A reaction attack is powerful enough (and why at -4?). We don't really need a remake of the controversial Crane's Wing. I think both the AC increase and attack penalty can go away. It could be a stance competing with other cool monk abilities.

That should be a ball or beam for, um, balance reasons. Yeah.

What is the BAB? Can you ever move and flurry in the same round?

Well, AC's formula should be 10+Proficiency Mod+Dex+Level, so your starting AC could be as high as 16 with a Monk given you can get one starting stat to 18 (10+1+4+1). Given Monks are the only class to start as Experts in their armor type (Unarmored), and both it and Paladins are the two classes that reach legendary proficiencies in their respective armor types by default, expect a Monk to be able to be decently tanky.

Every attack you make drops a bit until you hit your third attack. +0/-5/-10 for normal, +0/-4/-8 for agile like a Monk's unarmed strike. After that, any additional attacks you can make will be at that -8. I remember reading there was a two-weapon feat that let you roll your second weapon's attack without penalty, but the third attack would still be -8. I also know that backswing weapons give you a boost to your secondary attack if you miss the first one. But yeah, otherwise, attacks differ.

Monk Mobility is always nice.

A small price to pay for yet another attack.

Always down for a Kamehameha.

There is no BAB anymore, all classes add their level to their attack. Proficiency mod as well (-2 for Untrained, +0 for Trained, +1 for Expert, +2 for Master, and +3 for Legendary)

There are no more full round actions. You get three actions and a reaction to do with as you are able. Move, Attack, Attack...Move, Attack (Flurry would get you two attacks), Move...Attack Attack, Attack, etc. Of course, you could always get Hasted for one extra Move or Attack. There are several different Quicken abilities to get an extra action, and each one differs on what actions it grants. Monks can eventually get Enduring Quickness, which is one permanent action for striding or leaping, and can be used as one of the two actions for a Long or High Jump.

Meanwhile, there's things that can cause slowed, which reduce your actions when you are hit with them (Slowed 1 removes 1 action, Slowed 2 removes 2, etc).

But yeah, Move and Flurry is allowed. You can absolutely move in, flurry, and get out.

Flurry of blows is 1 action to attack twice (0/-4), and you still have 2 actions to do other stuff, like moving, quivering palm, or a ki blast. Or just attack 4 times, but with the scaling penalties (0/-4/-8/-12) your encouraged to do other things.

Actually, the penalty for attacks peaks at either -10 or -8, they've specifically stated it doesn't go lower.

 

[mellored]

Actually, the penalty for attacks peaks at either -10 or -8, they've specifically stated it doesn't go lower.

I missed that.

But still, -8 is a big enough penalty that it still means most people will do something besides spending all their actions to attack. Unless your fighting low-level monsters.
And the monk effectively has an extra action.

 

[Kurviak]

Stat + training + level.
Untrained (-2)
Trained (+0)
Expert (+1)
Master (+2)
Legendary (+3)

It seems to be the same for everyone. And being "expert" or "legendary" is more about giving you more feat options rather than bigger bonuses.

Yes.

You get 3 actions, and 1 reaction.
Attacking is 1 action. With -5 (-4 for monks) penalties for each extra attack on the same turn. (so 0/-4/-8)
Moving and such is 1 action.
Most spells take 2 actions, but it varies.

Flurry of blows is 1 action to attack twice (0/-4), and you still have 2 actions to do other stuff, like moving, quivering palm, or a ki blast. Or just attack 4 times, but with the scaling penalties (0/-4/-8/-12) your encouraged to do other things.

-8 is the limit, so it’s 0 -4 -8 -8

 

[CapnZapp]

One of the great improvements of 5E that you tend to forget about is doing away with useless third and fourth attacks.

I guess we need PF to remind us of exactly how great 5E is in actually fixing 3E's issues.

 

[Kurviak]

One of the great improvements of 5E that you tend to forget about is doing away with useless third and fourth attacks.

I guess we need PF to remind us of exactly how great 5E is in actually fixing 3E's issues.

PF2 is not focused on pleasing people who loves 5e, it’s focused on making the best version of PF they can at this moment. If you love 5e keep playing it, it’s a great game. But I don’t like 5e that much so I’m very eager to see and gm PF2’s playtest

 

[Sunseeker]

PF2 is not focused on pleasing people who loves 5e, it’s focused on making the best version of PF they can at this moment. If you love 5e keep playing it, it’s a great game. But I don’t like 5e that much so I’m very eager to see and gm PF2’s playtest

Even as a Pathfinder lover, I have to generally agree that iterative attacks are only so valuable as something every class has access to. For specific builds, like the two-weapon fighter who can get 16 attacks in a turn and the lowest will only be like, a -10, yeah, iterative attacks can be fun and useful. But in those cases, long trains of iterative attacks really should be class features, rather than a base part of the system.

I think 5E really got this right, in that some classes (like Barbarians and Paladins) only get one Extra Attack, and Fighters get four. It's no longer a penalty for a Fighter to take all their attacks because that's their thing. In the same sense that Wizards don't take a penalty for casting a 5d6 Fireball.

The same is true for the 5E Monk.

PF2 may be trying to "build a better PF1", but I think they're missing something by not recognizing that Striking multiple times in a round is the only way some classes have to keep up, and therefore shouldn't be penalized for it.