Moorcock blasts Tolkien

[Storm Raven]

Except that this is still just speculation. Considering the movies alone, we could also speculate that if Luke intended to rebuild the Jedi Order as it once was he would have been shown beginning to do so. One could compare the Jedi Order to the Knights Templar; an order of religious warriors/knights who used their power to become far too involved in politics and thus play a part in their own downfall.

I consider the most frightening element of the series the fact that Luke is portrayed as a headstrong and willful boy who refuses to listen to others and constantly places his own wants and desires above those of anyone else. Given that he is, presumably, the founder of the "new Jedi", this personality seems to me to be the germs of a superman tyrant.

I'd tend to agree that the Old Republic allows the Jedi Order too much autonomy. This could be due in part to their fear of the powers of the Jedi and in part to the convenience of having a super-powered police force to enforce the peace of a gigantic and cumbersome inter-planetary alliance and bloated bureaucracy. The Jedi seem to become used to having this authority and become arrogant and complacent. This allows for the rise of the Sith, the birth and fall of the Empire and the deaths of millions of innocents.

Obi-wan and Yoda seem to display a profound regret over the role of the Jedi Order in the Old Republic throughout episodes IV-VI. They don't seem to be teaching from a position of divine mandate rather than experience and regret. One could say that Obi-wan, Yoda and Luke are on a mission to attone for the sins of the Order. By destroying Palpatine (and even more so Vader) they are destroying the monsters of their own creation. In fact Vader can be seen as the ultimate embodiment of the arrogance and elitism of the Jedi Order. Since Luke is prophesized as the one to "bring balance to the force", it can just as easily be speculated that he *won't* return the Jedi Order to the same role it once bungled. I can easily see Luke returning the Jedi to the role of religious order it once was.

Well, their regret in IV-VI seems mostly to take the form of "we made mistakes training Vader and he turned against the Jedi". I don't recall an instance in which either Obi Wan or Yoda say something to the effect of "we, the Jedi, became arrogant and our involvement in running the galaxy led to the downfall of the Republic".

Actually, Obi Wan says a lot of things that seem to point in the opposite direction - the Republic needed the knights to function, and once Vader slew them all, the Republic fell apart. The days of the Republic were good times, and if only things would go back to the way they were everything would be better. And so on.

Given that the two Jedi we know who survived took it upon themselves to hide Vader's twins, and then conceal the truth from those twins (and actively lie to them, as Obi Wan does concerning his parentage), it seems that they didn't learn the lessons people want to ascribe to them, but rather seem to be comfortable trying to continue to control and manipulate events to suit their own desires.

 

[Storm Raven]

But honestly, I'd say this level of analysis is going far deeper than the movies were intended. Much like the D&D alignment system in a Paladin morality thread.

Of the orignal series, I'd say this is true. But the new series, with its focus on trade negotiations, political intrigue, and the nature of good government seems to invite such analysis. And frankly, it doesn't look very good when exposed to the light.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I think the "Jedi as Tyrants" discussion would make a better separate thread . . .

Yes, please.

 

[Raven Crowking]

So, does anyone have an opinion concerning Moorcock and Tolkien?

 

[Mark Hope]

Well, something that I was wondering about the other day is their respective success on the silver screen. The LotR movies have done staggeringly well - pulled loads at the box office and won plenty of Oscars to boot. They are very popular films.

An Elric movie is in the works, covering the main events of the novels Elric of Melnibone and The Dreaming City (although its progress is somewhat stalled at present, it seems). Assuming that it makes it to the silver screen and manages to be a decent representation of the material (Moorcock has said that the screenplay has been written to ensure an exciting movie, as opposed to a slavish reproduction of the novels), does anyone think that it will be as big a hit as LotR?

That's something of a rhetorical question, to a certain degree, because it seems pretty clear that it won't. Even as dedicated an Elric fan as myself would have to admit that the story doesn't have the same mass appeal as LotR. But to what degree might it hold its own? Might an Elric movie (or series of movies, given that the plan is to film the main elements of the saga) be able to carve a respectable niche for themselves? How might the Prince of Ruins fare as a movie star?

 

[Raven Crowking]

Well, if they have him played by Keanu Reeves....

"Stormbringer...? Woah!"

 

[Mark Hope]

"Stormbringer, no way dude! You totally killed him!! Bogus!"

 

[WayneLigon]

Ultimately it could be said that reliance on these "supermen" led to the fall of the Republic and the deaths of millions.

A lot of the confusion and silliness in this thread can be laid at the feet of taking Lucas at his word and treating his works as the absolute last word on canon. He's not the most consistant writer in the world; he makes mistakes, he lays down the law of how certain abilities work and then changes his mind when it's not convenient. He says one thing, does another, and means something else. Y'all are assuming he thinks things through in a logical way, and that's been shown not to be the case. No wonder there are these dog-eat-dog arguements.

 

[WayneLigon]

That's something of a rhetorical question, to a certain degree, because it seems pretty clear that it won't. Even as dedicated an Elric fan as myself would have to admit that the story doesn't have the same mass appeal as LotR. But to what degree might it hold its own? Might an Elric movie (or series of movies, given that the plan is to film the main elements of the saga) be able to carve a respectable niche for themselves? How might the Prince of Ruins fare as a movie star?

I'm uncertain just how well the world of Elric would translate to the silver screen. Elric himself is certainly not a very likeable or identifiable character from what I remember, and that would be key to any sort of film success. It's been a long time since I read the books, though. I could see it doing moderately well, simply because it is so different from most fantasy fare - I've usually seen it identified as a conscious reaction to and rejection of all the various fantasy genre tropes that came before it.

 

[Rackhir]

I'm uncertain just how well the world of Elric would translate to the silver screen. Elric himself is certainly not a very likeable or identifiable character from what I remember, and that would be key to any sort of film success. It's been a long time since I read the books, though. I could see it doing moderately well, simply because it is so different from most fantasy fare - I've usually seen it identified as a conscious reaction to and rejection of all the various fantasy genre tropes that came before it.

Likeability doesn't have a lot to do with success in films aside from trying to sell them to movie executives who adore that sort of thing. Nasty, mean and unpleasant characters have succeeded in a lot of films, IF the movie and the characters were well done.

Unfortunately, quality is much harder to achieve than likeability and more difficult to determine as well, which is probably why Movie Executives tend to favor likeability over quality.