Moorcock blasts Tolkien

[Storm Raven]

I dont think the Jedi are a dictatorial power in Lucas' eyes. They're the knights of the round table more than they are the samurai (though they are very eastern in many other respects- samurai were military dictators and the Jedi are not).

And the Knights of the Round Table, for the most part, had their positions and power as a result of their birthright. Citing them as inspiration for the Jedi Council seems to me to reinforce Brin's point.

 

[dcas]

I dont think the Jedi are a dictatorial power in Lucas' eyes. They're the knights of the round table more than they are the samurai (though they are very eastern in many other respects- samurai were military dictators and the Jedi are not).

I think the Jedi had become too calcified, too bound by tradition rather than something natural.

In Episode I we see Yoda living in a palace, surrounded by opulence, being carted around on hoverpads. The down to earth Jedi, Qui Gon, is not a leader of the Jedi because he speaks his mind too much.

Obi Wan's frustrated "but you'd be on the council already if only..." lets us know that politics has come to play a larger role in who leads the Jedi that knowledge of the force and wisdom. There's a worm in the apple and that worm is one of the reasons why they don't see the dangers right in front of their eyes, both Anakin and Palpatine.

Compare that to the rustic life he and Obi Wan are living in Episode IV- they are much simpler, much more down to earth. They are living like monks not kings.

Remember that to the Jedi, Anakin bringing "balance" to the force was seen as a GOOD prophecy. They clearly speak of it that way throughout the films.

They don't realize that it IS a good thing but the balancing entails losing all the trappings of opulence. No thousands of super-men at the Jedi Council's beck and call.

The field has been burned so a new crop, planted by Luke can be planted.

Vigilance, I think you and I agree on the Star Wars. You have said it far more eloquently than I have, however.

I believe that the prophecy of 'balancing the Force' is fulfilled not only in the eventual destruction of the Sith (which seems to take place at the end of ROTJ), but also in the purgation of the Jedi order, as well (which takes place during ROTS).

 

[Vigilance]

And the Knights of the Round Table, for the most part, had their positions and power as a result of their birthright. Citing them as inspiration for the Jedi Council seems to me to reinforce Brin's point.

Yep. There were even a few knights of the round table who started out farmers before their TRUE parentage was revealed. Once they were found to be of knightly stock (after proving themselves in battle) they were immediately knighted, sent on quests and in due course made knights of the Round Table themselves.

There's a few direct analogues for Luke in Malory.

I also agree with Brin totally that the Jedi, like Superman comics and the Greek heroes of the Iliad and the Knights of the Round Table are superheroes.

I also agree that superhero fiction is elitist by definition (just not in a perjorative way- the stories are about elites).

I just disagree with Brin that it's somehow pernicious (though I think he was just trying to make a point- he could only hold out a week before seeing the movies after all).

 

[Aaron L]

I remember reading that article about Star Wars before, and I thought it was as much bunk now as I did then. When were the Jedi portrayed as ruling the Republic, or as anything other than glorified policemen? I think people are injecting thier own prejudices into the story.

 

[dcas]

X-Rated Tolkien

What an inappropriately titillating title for that article.

I strongly doubt that 'The Children of Hurin' will ever be filmed.

 

[Storm Raven]

I just disagree with Brin that it's somehow pernicious (though I think he was just trying to make a point- he could only hold out a week before seeing the movies after all).

I don't think a story involving supermen is in and of itself pernicious either. Otherwise, for example, one would find the Iliad to be pernicious. I do, however, think it is pernicious if people start taking it seriously, and the creator starts making political statements in the work.

When Star Wars was about plucky rebel heroes fighting an evil empire with sword wielding wizards on either side, it was silly, but mostly harmless. When Lucas launched the second series and started making big political issues a key element of the story, it changed the tone of the works (and cast what had been reasonably innocent silliness in the earleri films into a more serious, and sinister light). When he began having characters debate (however woodenly and clumsily) the merits of dictatorship and democracy, he began to make the narrative not about pulp superheroes, but rather about the nature of government, and which is "good" and which is "evil". Consequently, when people began looking at the government he tagged as "good", many found some disturbing things there.

Now, I don't think this was the result of intentional deviousness on the part of Lucas. I don't think he advocates a society in which elite supermen chosen by birth rule over the masses. But that is what his movies appear to portray. I think this results from cluelessness on the part of Lucas as to the effect of mixing a traditional hero myth based on influences like the Iliad, the Arthurian cycle and so on, with a more modern political intrigue story. I think the anti-democratic message of the movies stems from Lucas' storytelling ineptitude, and not his conscious choice.

 

[Mark Hope]

When Star Wars was about plucky rebel heroes fighting an evil empire with sword wielding wizards on either side, it was silly, but mostly harmless. When Lucas launched the second series and started making big political issues a key element of the story, it changed the tone of the works (and cast what had been reasonably innocent silliness in the earleri films into a more serious, and sinister light). When he began having characters debate (however woodenly and clumsily) the merits of dictatorship and democracy, he began to make the narrative not about pulp superheroes, but rather about the nature of government, and which is "good" and which is "evil". Consequently, when people began looking at the government he tagged as "good", many found some disturbing things there.

Agreed. Most blatant of this was his "only the Sith deal in absolutes" sequence towards the end of RotS. In that case, it happens to be a decent point, imho, but it does illustrate the larger issue of polticised content in the later movies.

Now, I don't think this was the result of intentional deviousness on the part of Lucas. I don't think he advocates a society in which elite supermen chosen by birth rule over the masses. But that is what his movies appear to portray. I think this results from cluelessness on the part of Lucas as to the effect of mixing a traditional hero myth based on influences like the Iliad, the Arthurian cycle and so on, with a more modern political intrigue story. I think the anti-democratic message of the movies stems from Lucas' storytelling ineptitude, and not his conscious choice.

Yes, it certainly seems to be a classic example of Lucas' clumsiness than any political deviousness on his part. Unless, of course, everything is transpiring according to his design, and only now, at the end, do we understand...

 

[Mark Hope]

What an inappropriately titillating title for that article.

I strongly doubt that 'The Children of Hurin' will ever be filmed.

It would be kinda cool if it were, though. It remains my favourite tale in the Silmarillion. Battles, murder, swordplay and a kickass dragon. Plus an intelligent black sword - what more can you ask for?

The only real way it could be improved, imho, is if they replace the sword's lines with something even cooler. Say, something along the lines of "Farewell, friend. I was a thousand times more evil than thou," might be pretty neat. Y'think?

 

[Darth Shoju]

He rejects ruling the Empire alongside Vader as father and son. That is different from rejecting ruling the Empire. Based on the information given in the movies (leaving aside the numerous books written by people other than Lucas), we don't know what Luke does after the Rebellion succeeds (assuming that he and the rest of the Rebellion don't die as the debris from the destroyed Death Star makes the forest moon of Endor into a hellish radioactive wasteland). We do know that he is apparently to be guided by the ghosts of Annakin, Yoda, and Obi Wan Kenobi, and they seemed to think that the rightful place of those trained as Jedi was to be in control and manipulate others (right down to Yoda and Obi Wan's deception of Luke himself). I don't think it is too unexpected to see this as a message that the essential elite necessary to win will likely resume the role of the Jedi in the Republic of controlling things.

Except that this is still just speculation. Considering the movies alone, we could also speculate that if Luke intended to rebuild the Jedi Order as it once was he would have been shown beginning to do so. One could compare the Jedi Order to the Knights Templar; an order of religious warriors/knights who used their power to become far too involved in politics and thus play a part in their own downfall.

I'd tend to agree that the Old Republic allows the Jedi Order too much autonomy. This could be due in part to their fear of the powers of the Jedi and in part to the convenience of having a super-powered police force to enforce the peace of a gigantic and cumbersome inter-planetary alliance and bloated bureaucracy. The Jedi seem to become used to having this authority and become arrogant and complacent. This allows for the rise of the Sith, the birth and fall of the Empire and the deaths of millions of innocents.

Obi-wan and Yoda seem to display a profound regret over the role of the Jedi Order in the Old Republic throughout episodes IV-VI. They don't seem to be teaching from a position of divine mandate rather than experience and regret. One could say that Obi-wan, Yoda and Luke are on a mission to attone for the sins of the Order. By destroying Palpatine (and even more so Vader) they are destroying the monsters of their own creation. In fact Vader can be seen as the ultimate embodiment of the arrogance and elitism of the Jedi Order. Since Luke is prophesized as the one to "bring balance to the force", it can just as easily be speculated that he *won't* return the Jedi Order to the same role it once bungled. I can easily see Luke returning the Jedi to the role of religious order it once was.

Ultimately it could be said that reliance on these "supermen" led to the fall of the Republic and the deaths of millions. Since Jedi are seen being killed by regular-old blasters by the dozens in RoTS and AoTC, they can hardly been seen as unassailable by regular joes. That being said, perhaps the New Republic learns from the mistakes of Old Republic and will not succumb to the will of the "cosmic supermen" again.

But honestly, I'd say this level of analysis is going far deeper than the movies were intended. Much like the D&D alignment system in a Paladin morality thread.

 

[dcas]

The only real way it could be improved, imho, is if they replace the sword's lines with something even cooler. Say, something along the lines of "Farewell, friend. I was a thousand times more evil than thou," might be pretty neat. Y'think?

Yeah, it would be teh awesome.

I wonder if it will include Hurin and Morwen's meeting at the grave of Turin?