Moorcock blasts Tolkien

[Flyspeck23]

Oh, and is no-one going to comment on my deeply insightful point about the Sith afterlife and glowy red spirits? I am deeply, deeply offended...

Don't be. I liked the idea. But it wasn't your "deeply insightful point", it was your girlfriend's

OTOH I merely wanted to read this thread as carnage unfolds... better not to post here, or else it might confuse the combatants...

 

[dcas]

No, it doesn't. I assumes, for example (erroneously too), that "only the Sith believe that the special should rule". Viewing the movies cvlearly shows that the Jedi hold to this view too.

I don't believe that the Jedi hold this view. However, even if they do hold this view, the Jedi are virtually destroyed in part because they are doing things (i.e., leading armies into battle to fight the Separatists) that they aren't supposed to be doing. So the movies themselves to not support the idea that only the elites should rule. By ROTJ, the elites are all destroyed, except for Luke and Leia, who do not seem poised to take over the galaxy.

 

[Storm Raven]

Examples please.

For example, "only the Sith are interested in ruling the galaxy".

An outright lie. Name the scene where those who support the Republic or Rebellion make such a claim.

They don't claim it, they are more subtle than that. They act it. By their actions, the Republic and the Rebellion demonstrate their opinion that supermen are critical to have, and they should be deferred to.

Another lie. The Jedi don't rule the Galaxy.

You just don't want to see the Jedi for what they are: an elite oligarchy "benevolently" ruling over the lesser inhabitants of the galaxy.

Again, the Jedi don't rule the Galaxy. Give one example of the Senate rubber stamping a decision of the Jedi Council. There aren't any because the Jedi answer to the Republic and not the other way around. The only thing they control is internal Jedi matters and the rules of the order.

For example, making the clone army into the army of the republic, at Yoda's behest. However, for the most part, the Jedi don't even bother to ask the council. They just "do what is best" in their opinion.

And you base this on what, exactly?

Well, I would base Tiger Wood's superiority on his superior record of accomplishment (numerous tournament titles, awards and so on), while Andre Ware was a backup quarterback with an entirely undistinguished record.

And to be quite precise here, the comparison of a golfer to a football player is not a good analogy overall. The comparison to Brin and Lucas would more aptly be a comparison between two football players who play different positions (i.e. they are in the same field, but do slightly different things).

If you can make an honest argument, make it. You have made several claims that are demonstrably false and simply repeat David Brin's lies. You offer no evidence for your other claims. That's very dishonest, but typical for Brin and his apologists.

Brin's observations are not lies, they are simply a view of the movie that is different than yours. Is it truly so important to you that Lucas, a second tier director and producer, and a third rate storyteller, be deified as having never made a misstep in his career? Brin takes his observations directly from the observed behaviour of the characters in the movies, and draws conclusions from them. That isn't lying, that is evaluating. I'm sorry that you disagree with him, but it doesn't make his evaluation "lies" (which seems to be your favorite word, as if repeating it ad nauseum will make your flawed arguments gain traction).

And as long as we are talking about accuracy, I'm still waiting for you to show how, for example, Brin had anything to do with the production of the movie The Postman.

 

[Mark Hope]

Don't be. I liked the idea. But it wasn't your "deeply insightful point", it was your girlfriend's

Well, the bit about the glowy red spirits was mine, but I didn't make that clear. Oh well, my bad. Serves me right from going against the words of She Who Must Be Obeyed, I guess, lol...

OTOH I merely wanted to read this thread as carnage unfolds... better not to post here, or else it might confuse the combatants...

You can still throw peanuts from the gallery .

 

[dcas]

Well, I would base Tiger Wood's superiority on his superior record of accomplishment (numerous tournament titles, awards and so on), while Andre Ware was a backup quarterback with an entirely undistinguished record.

Then on what do you base Brin's superiority in the area of fiction? Yes, it is certainly the case that Tiger Woods is a better golfer than Andre Ware is a football player. But given that Lucas has as much accomplishment as a filmaker, or more, that Brin has as a writer of science fiction, what more evidence do you have to offer in favor of Brin's superiority except your own opinion?

Comparing Brin to Lucas is more like comparing Tiger Woods to Pete Sampras.

 

[Storm Raven]

I don't believe that the Jedi hold this view. However, even if they do hold this view, the Jedi are virtually destroyed in part because they are doing things (i.e., leading armies into battle to fight the Separatists) that they aren't supposed to be doing. So the movies themselves to not support the idea that only the elites should rule. By ROTJ, the elites are all destroyed, except for Luke and Leia, who do not seem poised to take over the galaxy.

The Jedi don't say that they hold this view, but their actions demonstrate that they do. And the society they are part of does too. For example, when the army of the Republic is formed, do the Jedi take positions within the ranks as soldiers serving under commanders who are not Jedi? No, they immediately become an elite officer corps placed in charge of the war. They are granted this position as a result of their superman like abilities. They act without consulting the senate, and seem to act without accountability. While the Sith say they are destined to rule, the Jedi act like they are entitled to rule. At least the Sith get points for being honest about their views.

 

[Gentlegamer]

X-Rated Tolkien

 

[Flyspeck23]

You can still throw peanuts from the gallery .

Huzzah!

 

[Mark Hope]

X-Rated Tolkien

Heh, interesting angle. Although it calls Hurin an elf, when he's actually a man. Otherwise a decent piece.

 

[Storm Raven]

Then on what do you base Brin's superiority in the area of fiction? Yes, it is certainly the case that Tiger Woods is a better golfer than Andre Ware is a football player. But given that Lucas has as much accomplishment as a filmaker, or more, that Brin has as a writer of science fiction, what more evidence do you have to offer in favor of Brin's superiority except your own opinion?

Well, first off, there is my own opinion. The original comment that started this "football-golfer" thing was my statement that in my opinion Brin's fiction is superior to Lucas' fiction. So, really, at the outset, the question comes down to my preferences. I find the Uplift universe, and the stories told relating to it, for example, to be much more interesting and enjoyable than the Star Wars universe and the stories in it.

However, as far as an objective comparison is concerned, I would point to the fact that Brin has won mulitple Hugo and Nebula awards for his books, while the only Oscars or Golden Globes (reasonably comparable awards for his medium) Lucas has won have been for effects work, something that has little to do with the quality of the fiction in the movies. While Lucas has been nominated for awards, such as being nominated once as a best director nominee, he has also been nominated several more times as the worst director by the razzies.