Mor's End Craft & Trade Submissions

[The Forsaken One]

I'll put in 10-15 shops somewhere during next week. You can hold me by me word on that. No time now but then you all know that I'm putting something in this plan!

 

[Conaill]

I've put all of the craft/professions from A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe up on our web page as a download.

Woohoo! Thanks Joe!

One note for those wanting to use these numbers: everything in MMS refers to numbers of adults! As far as I know, the 10,200 number for Mor's End includes children as well.

According to the DMG, non-adults comprise 10-40% of the population, depending on race. Let's say 30% for Mor's End, because we have a big dwarven population. So the number of adults in Mor's End is... 7140!

Let's call it 7000 adults for convenience (31% children). I haven't yet updated the profession numbers I've leisted before this in various thread, but perhaps I should...

(PS: I noticed Buttercup's numbers for various profession were quite a bit lower than the ones I got from MMS. Correcting for the number of adults brings the two much closer in line!)

 

[Conaill]

Buttercup:

Would you like me to post an updated list of professions based on the MMS table? I'm getting pretty close to your values if I correct for the number of adults. but MMS has a whole bunch more professions as well!

For example, the most common prefession in your table is shoemaker (60). Here's the list of "professions" that have more than 60 members in the table derived from MMS:

Beggers 1000
Laborers 700
Housewives, Househusbands 700
Elderly/Infirm 583
Servers (taverns, inns, restaurants) 200
Clergy members 140
Guards (private) 140
Peddlers 117
Porters 117
Apprentices 100
Domestic Servants 78
Guards (city, governmental) 70
Students 70
Journymen 70
Thieves 70
Sailors 70
Mercenaries 70

 

[jgbrowning]

Re: boarding houses, apts, etc

"Boarding houses I'm not so sure about. I think these were a much later concept. But I'll investigate. If you know of a source that talks about medieval boarding houses, point it out to me"

I doubt you can find too much on the history of boarding houses. It is likely one of those things that are just always there and get little notice.

Yeah, not a lot written about that subject. We viewed boarding houses as the solution to short term lodging needs. ie. a trader/lawyer comes in and it's going to take a month to settle is business so he needs a place to stay. Also any place with a university/unique good is going to have youthful (20ish) wealthy people/traders who need places to live.

joe b.

 

[Tallow]

Argali Steddings

Ahh... but we're not talking about your common barnyard sheep here. We're talking about Argali sheep... which in D&D terms would be classified as dire sheep. In the real world, Argali sheep are rarely domesticated. They grow up to 5 feet tall, and live mainly in the mountains of central asia (from kyrgizstan to tibet).

Argali sheep offer good meat, can produce drinkable milk (similar to goat's milk), and can be shorn for wool.

I never imagined the countryside would be filled with large ranches. I always assumed that the nearby land would be a mixture of noble land holdings (including Lady Kelvin's lands), and land owned by villagers.

The noble lands would be dotted with small farms, and villages to support those farms. The villagers/farmers on noble lands would work the land for a small share of the crop/animals... or they would be given a small plot of land to farm for their own profit, but would be taxed on that profit.

The independent villages would either be one large extended family or a cooperative of a few families. These villages would attempt to be as self sufficient as possible with a lot of mixed farming and animals. They would pay tax to the city for protection.

Joe B... is the above too far off medieval reality?

--sam

Granted. Is there a reason though that two or three particularly influential nobles or influential argali herdsmen who became nobles (and banded the various independent argali tribes under his wing) couldn't have grabbed up, owned, purchased or claimed a crap load of land and continued to herd huge herds of argali sheep? If there were ways to make this profitable, I'm sure even a medieval person could have a "ranch."

The specifics may be different from a 1890's ranch in the western USA (ala Louis L'Amour fame). And it may not fit perfectly into the reality of a typical medieval town. But why should it fit perfectly into either? Its a fantasy city in a fantasy world (most likely) and having little quirks that differentiate it will give it reasons to actually be used as more than a window dressing city.

I have some very good ideas for these argali "ranches" but it doesn't seem there is any kind of consensus on what they should be exactly, and I don't want to waste my time making up something that is completely off from what the powers that be want for the city.

Andy Christian

 

[jgbrowning]

Ahh... but we're not talking about your common barnyard sheep here. We're talking about Argali sheep... which in D&D terms would be classified as dire sheep. In the real world, Argali sheep are rarely domesticated. They grow up to 5 feet tall, and live mainly in the mountains of central asia (from kyrgizstan to tibet).

Argali sheep offer good meat, can produce drinkable milk (similar to goat's milk), and can be shorn for wool.

I never imagined the countryside would be filled with large ranches. I always assumed that the nearby land would be a mixture of noble land holdings (including Lady Kelvin's lands), and land owned by villagers.

The noble lands would be dotted with small farms, and villages to support those farms. The villagers/farmers on noble lands would work the land for a small share of the crop/animals... or they would be given a small plot of land to farm for their own profit, but would be taxed on that profit.

The independent villages would either be one large extended family or a cooperative of a few families. These villages would attempt to be as self sufficient as possible with a lot of mixed farming and animals. They would pay tax to the city for protection.

Joe B... is the above too far off medieval reality?

--sam

Damn, those some scary sheep! I 'bout soiled me armor.... No it all sounds great. Just wanted a work of caution because i wasn't aware how aware you were.....

Few things you might want to look into with the Argali:

1. Wool yield and quality. if neither of these are good or if there are more "tame" sheep that fit the bill better the landowners may think of importing a sheep instead of using a more indigious variaty.

2. milk yields. how do the milk yields compare with the above varieties?

I know these two questions may qualify you for an honorary soil sciences degree...

joe b.

 

[jgbrowning]

Re: Argali Steddings

Granted. Is there a reason though that two or three particularly influential nobles or influential argali herdsmen who became nobles (and banded the various independent argali tribes under his wing) couldn't have grabbed up, owned, purchased or claimed a crap load of land and continued to herd huge herds of argali sheep? If there were ways to make this profitable, I'm sure even a medieval person could have a "ranch."
Andy Christian

The main difference is that animals, unlike soil, can be taken away or killed. Given the violent nature and common occurace of war, putting to much wealth into things that can die isn't terribly prudent. The first time an army happens by, that poor rancher's going to end up feeding them. If he has a more diversified source of food/income he has a better chance of surviving.

That being said, this is a fantasy city. It doesn't have to be a traditional medievalesque city. It can be whatever people want it to be, so view the information from A Magical Medieval
Society:Western Europe as tools not rules. Ignore them when you want to, and use them when they're helpful.

joe b.

 

[Tallow]

Argali Sheep

Damn, those some scary sheep! I 'bout soiled me armor.... No it all sounds great. Just wanted a work of caution because i wasn't aware how aware you were.....

Few things you might want to look into with the Argali:

1. Wool yield and quality. if neither of these are good or if there are more "tame" sheep that fit the bill better the landowners may think of importing a sheep instead of using a more indigious variaty.

2. milk yields. how do the milk yields compare with the above varieties?

I know these two questions may qualify you for an honorary soil sciences degree...

joe b.

Don't forget, that if this is a medieval society, and the chief "ranchers" are herdsmen (who were more than likely nomadic once upon a time), then the sheep would net alot more than just milk, meet and wool.

But for the wool...

1) Camel hair jackets are VERY expensive. There is no reason to disbelieve that Argali wool could be a luxury item.

2) Wool is MUCH warmer than silk, and would provide winter clothing for those who work outside much of the time.

For the milk...

1) Milk begets butter and cheese. Feta cheese is considered a upper-class cheese in the USA, although for goat herders, I'm sure its more like American processed cheese. That isn't to say though, that these particular Argali have milk that when processed correctly can provide a very excellent cheese and/or butter that could be considered a luxury item.

2) Since there are no cows here, this would be the only availability of milk, unless they imported milk. In medieval times, importing milk is an improbable enterprise because of refrigeration and spoilage issues.

Other items...

Horns: Horns like those could be used by craftsmen to create many types of tools, musical instruments, and carvings (skrimshaw, horn or bone carving, ivory carving, etc.).

Bones: For the herdsmen anyways, the bones could easily be used for tools, armor, help in holding up their transportable tents (teepees).

Gut: Bowstrings, rope, etc.

Lard: lamp oil, stoves, etc.

And this is just a few of the things that the Argali could be used and processed for.

Andy Christian

 

[Lalato]

Damn, those some scary sheep! I 'bout soiled me armor.... No it all sounds great. Just wanted a work of caution because i wasn't aware how aware you were.....

Few things you might want to look into with the Argali:

1. Wool yield and quality. if neither of these are good or if there are more "tame" sheep that fit the bill better the landowners may think of importing a sheep instead of using a more indigious variaty.

2. milk yields. how do the milk yields compare with the above varieties?

I know these two questions may qualify you for an honorary soil sciences degree...

1. From the limited resources I've found (most Argali resources are for hunters)... In the real world, Argali wool isn't the highest quality. Having said that, most real world Argali wool is from animals that are close to wild as very few are domesticated... poor diet may have something to do with the wool quality. It's my assumption that with the proper diet, Argali wool would be mid grade, at best. It's not the highest quality, but if you want to keep warm during winter... it will be a lot better than Water Silk. As far as yield... I don't think the sheep in Australia/New Zealand have anything to worry about from Argali. I suspect, though, that the animal would produce better and more wool with an improved diet.

2. In the real world Argali can produce milk... The milk is similar to goat's milk. Since the animal is much larger than a goat, I would say the yield is better than a goat... but probably nowhere near a cow.

With either wool or milk... animal husbandry over several generations of argali might produce some really fine wool... or a better milk producer.

--sam

p.s. sorry for hijacking this thread, Buttercup...

 

[Tallow]

Argali Sheep

1. From the limited resources I've found (most Argali resources are for hunters)... In the real world, Argali wool isn't the highest quality. Having said that, most real world Argali wool is from animals that are close to wild as very few are domesticated... poor diet may have something to do with the wool quality. It's my assumption that with the proper diet, Argali wool would be mid grade, at best. It's not the highest quality, but if you want to keep warm during winter... it will be a lot better than Water Silk. As far as yield... I don't think the sheep in Australia/New Zealand have anything to worry about from Argali. I suspect, though, that the animal would produce better and more wool with an improved diet.

2. In the real world Argali can produce milk... The milk is similar to goat's milk. Since the animal is much larger than a goat, I would say the yield is better than a goat... but probably nowhere near a cow.

With either wool or milk... animal husbandry over several generations of argali might produce some really fine wool... or a better milk producer.

--sam

p.s. sorry for hijacking this thread, Buttercup...

And to add something else, to append my last post on other items sheep are good for...

Hide... Sheep skin can provide very nice leather clothing. It is softer and easier to work than the heavier hides from cows. It can be used for many things. The herders probably used them for their huts/tents, clothing, gloves, boots, etc...

Andy Christian