Multiclassing Feats & Powers

[toxicspirit]

the multiclass feats aren't any worse than Skill training, and can be at least a little better.

That's only true for the first one. The rest of the Power-swapping feats are basically just a waste, as you gain no actual benefit, just the ability to to swap one Power for another of a similar level. The follow-up multi-class feats themselves give you nothing tangible, unlike the initial one.

 

[lkj]

Gents and ladies,
I just got a customer service response about swapping paragon multiclass powers as part of levelling up.

The question:

If you opt for paragon multiclassing, which grants an encounter, utility, and daily power from your second class, are you allowed to swap those powers for higher level powers as you level up (pg 27-28)?

For example, according to pg 27, at 17th level "you can replace any encounter attack power you know from your class with a new one of your new level." If I have the 7th level encounter power from my second class from paragon multiclassing, can I swap that power for a higher level power from my second class at 17th level?

The answer:

Yes, you can.


Cheers,
AD

 

[lkj]

That's only true for the first one. The rest of the Power-swapping feats are basically just a waste, as you gain no actual benefit, just the ability to to swap one Power for another of a similar level. The follow-up multi-class feats themselves give you nothing tangible, unlike the initial one.

I have to disagree here. The tangible benefit is getting access to powers and combinations of powers that wouldn't be allowed if you only could pick powers from your primary class.

The level of benefit of those 'non-standard' combinations of powers is variable. But I find it hard to believe that there's no tangible benefit to a melee character being able to throw a fireball or meteor storm, even at the expense of losing a fighter power. Heck the benefit doesn't even have to be that high given that feats, by and large, now give relatively small benefits as a whole.

And, furthermore, I now see a tangible benefit to forgoing a paragon path. Since you can swap up your powers as you level up (see my previous post), you can make up for the loss of paragon path features and powers as you progress.

I think this system works fine. But that's my current opinion. We'll see how it plays.

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[Dice4Hire]

I too, think the multicalssing feats are quite powerful. Of course, if you choose powers that do not synergize well, you will not do well, but who would choose that? So for a simple 13 in a non-prime ability score(if that) and four feats, you get a four powers that can give you a significant advantage in combat.

And being able to switch them out at higher levels is even better.

 

[theNater]

This is also assuming you meet the prerequisites for the power (some do have them).

I presume that you mean the prerequisites of the feat. Given that the feat provides more than Skill Training, which is a feat without prerequisites, having a prerequisite is entirely appropriate. Also note that getting a 13 in one stat is not difficult, given that the standard array has a 16, a 14, and a 13. Any character using the standard array qualifies for at least one multiclass feat at level 1.

OK - bad anology - but the point is still valid. A wizard (even a multiclassed wizard) that can only cast 3 spells is not worth having. (IMHO)

What's the limit? Note that a character fully multiclassed into wizard through feats has 4 spells, not 3.

But yes, a character who wishes to multiclass into wizard will have significantly fewer wizard spells than a character who started as a wizard.

But this can not happen. You only can have 3 powers. My thoughts were after you multiclass to be able to select either class power. Anything before that would still be fighter powers.

Your suggestion was that upon taking new powers, they could be from either class. Starting at level 13, when a character acquires a new power, they replace an old power. If they are allowed to take second class powers to replace first class powers, they can have their entire attack power list composed of second class powers by level 19, assuming they also use the power-swap feats.

If we assume that, then your correct. I never thought Skill Training was worth a feat to begin with. There are alot of feats I don't think are worth a thing. But thats my opinion and I know others will disagree. A feat (IMO) should be special, a bonus to saves so you could possibly live longer, a bonus to attacks so you can hit easier, a bonus to AC so you might not get hit as often, a bonus on ranged attacks to reduce those penalities, armor and weapon proficiencies to reduce penalities, spell penatration to overcome SR, extra turning to turn more undead, basically things that help in combat situations. Things like Skill Training, Alertness, Animal Affinity, or other things like that (bonuses to skills) I never thought should be feats.

Now before anyone yells about this, I do know that there are times skills can help in combat. So please don't scream and shout about this, it's my opinion.

4th edition feats differ from 3rd edition feats. Many of them do help in combat situations, though precisely the effects you suggest are very difficult to come by as they are quite powerful. Skill Training in a combat helpful skill is about as valuable, in combat, as other feats with no prerequisites.

Feat means something slightly different in 4th edition than it did in 3rd edition. Comparing 4th edition feats to 3rd edition feats gives an unrealistic expectation to the value of 4th edition feats.

Then you would get even less powers.

True, but you only get powers you want. If a power isn't valuable to you, don't take it. If having lots of powers from the second class is valuable to you, you have to spend to get it. Basic economics.

OK - but thier example of the "a character who takes Initiate of the Faith counts as a cleric for taking feats that have cleric as a prerequisite" But that example is wrong so Why use that example? and Why multiclass to cleric if you can't take the feats?

OK - don't answer this because your going to say I count as a cleric, not the other prerequisites. But it does not make any type of sense.

It is, admittedly, not the best example. However, suggesting that the example is wrong is inaccurate, as your second paragraph indicates that you know.

Yes, I agree this could have been intentionally ommitted, just wanted to open the possibility that it was accidental.

Again, even if the one thing is an accident(a claim for which we have very little evidence), it does not necessarily make the other thing an accident(a claim for which we have no evidence).

I have to disagree with this, 3 powers may seem like alot, but if you figure that its 3 out of 17 or 18 if human (2,4,4,7). And I believe the powers you get from paragon multiclassing are 1) considered the paragon powers because you get them because your not paragon. and 2) actually a total of 7 levels lower in power than you would get in a paragon path.

If I'm correct about part 1 then these powers can not be traded or retrained or swapped, and Part 2 assumes you select the highest possible level power at each selection.

The (2, 4, 4, 7) readout includes your paragon powers. If you use paragon multiclassing, your power readout becomes (1/1, 2/2, 2/2, 4/2/1). If you take a paragon path from the second class, and we count those powers as second class powers, the readout becomes (2/0, 2/2, 2/2, 4/2/1) The format here is first class/second class, with the utility powers including a third spot for the epic destiny utility power.

And, as has been discovered in the time since you posted, you can retrain the second class powers gained from paragon multiclassing.

In the above comparison you are correct, but if you compare a fighter who can lob the Scorching Burst, to a fighter who can Lob a Scorching Burst one round and hit melee with Shocking Grasp through his sword on the next round. The second fighter is much more impressive.

Well, yes, and a fighter who can cause all enemies within a hundred miles to instantly drop dead is more impressive still. The point of multiclassing is not open-ended increases in power, it's an increase in flexibility.

If you want a fighter who can use Scorching Burst and channel magic through his sword, 4th edition can do that(be a fighter, multiclass to wizard, take the wizard of the spiral tower paragon path). If you want a wizard wearing plate armor and wielding a greataxe, 4th edition can do that, too(be a wizard with good str and con, spend 4 feats work your way up to plate armor. Weapon Proficiency with a greataxe is optional, but at the cost of one feat, it is highly recommended). If you want a character with all the defender capabilities of a fighter and all the controller abilities of a wizard, then no, 4th edition can't do that.

I think that 4E limited powers far too much to be useful, since 95% of the time you're just going to use your crappy at-will powers, saving the encounter and daily powers for "boss" monsters.

I've seen some estimates that a 4th edition combat lasts, on average, 8 rounds. Let's say 10 for easy numbers. Under no circumstances does a character need to save his encounter powers for boss monsters, as there either is a boss monster in the encounter(so the character can target him with encounter powers) or there is no boss monster in the encounter(in which case the character's encounter powers will be back before the encounter with a boss monster in it). So in this hypothetical 10-round combat, the character uses 4 encounter powers and 6 at-will powers, for a 60% use of at-will powers.

This estimate is assuming that the character spends no rounds using his standard action to maneuver into position(with a charge or as a second move action), trying special actions like a grab or bull rush, or activating utility powers. The claim that 95% of the time a character will be using at-will powers is not based on anything resembling the reality of the game system.

 

[Arbitrary]

Gents and ladies,
I just got a customer service response about swapping paragon multiclass powers as part of levelling up.

The question:

If you opt for paragon multiclassing, which grants an encounter, utility, and daily power from your second class, are you allowed to swap those powers for higher level powers as you level up (pg 27-28)?

For example, according to pg 27, at 17th level "you can replace any encounter attack power you know from your class with a new one of your new level." If I have the 7th level encounter power from my second class from paragon multiclassing, can I swap that power for a higher level power from my second class at 17th level?

The answer:

Yes, you can.


Cheers,
AD

You cannot replace a power gained from a paragon path or an epic destiny. I wish it weren't the case but I cannot see any reason to allow multiclass characters the ability to retrain the powers they took during the paragon levels into higher level powers later.

 

[theNater]

You cannot replace a power gained from a paragon path or an epic destiny. I wish it weren't the case but I cannot see any reason to allow multiclass characters the ability to retrain the powers they took during the paragon levels into higher level powers later.

The power gained from paragon multiclassing isn't a power gained from a paragon path. It is a class power, and therefore subject to all of the rules for class powers, including retraining rules.

 

[Marshall]

You cant 'retrain' a power into a higher slot anyway. Thats a moot point. The only way to increase a power level is at the swap-out points. Your paragon level MC powers will always be 11/12/20.

 

[Arbitrary]

I understand the argument but it reeks of exploiting unclear wording and it is not congruent with the spirit of how everyone and everything else operates. It is not congruent with the uniformity the system tries to maintain.

At level 11 everyone gets an encounter power from their chosen specialization from entering the Paragon tier. I see no reason to give special and unique benefits to one character over another.

Believe me, as someone who loves multiclass characters I would love for this to work but at the end of the day it just screams unintended.

 

[lkj]

You cant 'retrain' a power into a higher slot anyway. Thats a moot point. The only way to increase a power level is at the swap-out points. Your paragon level MC powers will always be 11/12/20.

It's not retraining. It's the swap you do at level up, as per pg. 27-28.

It's not a paragon path.

And finally-- while I know that they aren't always consistent-- the answer from Customer Service was very clear.

Yes. You can.

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