Multiclassing Feats & Powers

[ravenight]

Bear in mind that you only ever have 4 encounter and 4 daily powers, so having 1 of each from your second class is a lot. Also, with paragon multiclassing or a paragon path from the second class, you get another 1 of each - giving you 2 from second class and 2 from first class, so you are pretty much able to fully multiclass (if you want to shift the balance the other way, pick the second class as primary).

I don't think you can swap out the paragon multiclassing powers, but it does seem a little gray (the rules forbid swapping class features and powers granted by paragon paths, but nothing explicity refers to paragon multiclassing as a path - in fact, it says you give up the opportunity to take a path in exchange for it).

EDIT: That said, I do think it would be nice if, in exchange for losing out on the paragon features, you got one of the features of the second class in addition to the at-will. That would give you at least a chance to play someone who had both sneak attack and spellbook, for example.

 

[zookeeper]

Bear in mind that you only ever have 4 encounter and 4 daily powers, so having 1 of each from your second class is a lot. Also, with paragon multiclassing or a paragon path from the second class, you get another 1 of each - giving you 2 from second class and 2 from first class, so you are pretty much able to fully multiclass (if you want to shift the balance the other way, pick the second class as primary).

That is not 100% correct, according to paragon multiclassing section if you have the power swap feats and do not take the paragon path you gain a power (which is at 11th level paragon) of 7th level or lower (effectivly losing 4 levels) in place of your paragon path power, which because it is a paragon path power can not be swapped out or retrained. Effectively you have 1 scalable power through retraining and 1 7th level (or lower) power from your second class, which when you reach higher levels is largely ineffective compared to the paragon path powers. Sure mathmatically you do have 2 powers from each class. This is just for first (11th level power), you lose 2 levels for the 12th level power and 1 level for the 20th level power for a total of 7 lost levels of power.

I don't think you can swap out the paragon multiclassing powers, but it does seem a little gray (the rules forbid swapping class features and powers granted by paragon paths, but nothing explicity refers to paragon multiclassing as a path - in fact, it says you give up the opportunity to take a path in exchange for it).

As above, you still get powers in place of the paragon path powers, these (I believe) are considered your paragon powers and as such can not be swapped out or retrained. You still gain them when your supposed to get the paragon path powers (11th, 12th, and 20th respectively).

EDIT: That said, I do think it would be nice if, in exchange for losing out on the paragon features, you got one of the features of the second class in addition to the at-will. That would give you at least a chance to play someone who had both sneak attack and spellbook, for example.

That might be good, but I do not think that these multiclass rules are worth giving up 4 feats and a paragon path only to get a trained skill, a watered down class ability, 3 scaleable powers, and if you paragon multiclass 3 static powers. Especially when you don't even get the class features that made the classes desireable to play like the cleric's channel divinity to turn undead, or the rogue's sneak attack ability (yes I know you get to use it once per encounter), but the ability to deal this sneak attack damage whenever you have an advantage is what made it fun. Trying to sneak around and get that advantage for each hit was an adventure in itself.

A fighter/rogue with the ability to flank an opponent and deal extra sneak attack damage was fun. The monk/rogue was interesting when they delivered the quivering palm feature of the monk through the rogues backstab feat. And the fighter/wizard that could deliver a shocking grasp spell through a sword was (actually turned into a new class) great just the same.

I'm not in any way saying that the 3.x system was better, in fact it gave you too many abilities. (Armor and weapon profs, skills, etc.) The main thing I'm saying is that the class features were the interesting parts. Now they have made some (or most) of those features powers or features you don't get.

Sorry for the ranting

 

[bert1000]

That might be good, but I do not think that these multiclass rules are worth giving up 4 feats and a paragon path only to get a trained skill, a watered down class ability, 3 scaleable powers, and if you paragon multiclass 3 static powers. Especially when you don't even get the class features that made the classes desireable

Agreed, especially paragon multiclassing. So, I'm thinking about:

Paragon Multi-classing
If you have all 4 multi-class feats, you can choose the “Multi-class Paragon Path”. This has the following benefits:
1) Can swap 1at-will per PHB
2) Get a 7th level, 10th level, and 19th power of your 2nd class instead of Paragon powers per PHB
3) Instead of other Paragon features, you also get more of the class features of your 2nd class per below. These features replace any features from the multi-class feats when overlapping. For example, when a multi-class Rogue gets Sneak Attack at 16th level, the 1/encounter Sneak Attack from the feat is no longer valid.

Cleric
11th: Channel Divinity, Healer’s Lore
16th: Healing Word

Fighter:
11th: Combat Challenge, Combat Superiority
16th: Fighter Weapon talent

Paladin:
11th: Channel Divinity, Lay on Hands
16th: Divine Challenge

Ranger:
11th: Fighting Style, Prime Shot
16th: Hunter’s Quarry

Rogue:
11th: Rogue Tactics, First Strike
16th: Sneak Attack

Warlock:
11th: Warlock’s Curse, Shadow Walk
16th: Pact Boon

Warlord
11th: Combat Leader, Commanding Presence
16th: Inspiring Word

Wizard:
11th: Implement Mastery, Cantrips
16th: Spellbook (only for Wizard spells)

This really would produce more of a 1/2 and 1/2 multi-class by level 20, and seems ok at first glance.

You pay:
4 feats
Give up paragon features
Give up paragon powers

You get:
1 trained skill
3 swapped powers
3 lower level "paragon" powers
Most class features of your 2nd class

I haven't thought through all the combinations, though, so this might be too much (especially for striker multi-classing into striker).

 

[Jhaelen]

That might be good, but I do not think that these multiclass rules are worth giving up 4 feats and a paragon path only to get a trained skill, a watered down class ability, 3 scaleable powers, and if you paragon multiclass 3 static powers.

Maybe. Personally, I think, taking the first feat is extremely worthwhile. The other three are only woth it for certain character concepts.

All in all the new multiclassing seems to be perfectly balanced. It no longer makes you more powerful, it just makes you more flexible. Which is what the point of multiclassing should be (imho).

My only nitpick right now are the bugs in some of the multi-classing feats. E.g. multiclassing into cleric theoretically grants you access to cleric-only feats. But the only cleric-only feats that exist at the moment also require the channel divinity power...

I'm confident it will be fixed after some splatbooks have been released, but it's annoying that the multi-classing feats are not equally useful right now.

 

[Skornn2k7]

I have a question about the Warlord and Cleric multi-classing. It says you get Inspiring word from the Warlord, and Healing word from the cleric that you can use 1/day. The powers are both minor actions, but they also allow you to use them 2 times during the encounter, as long as you dont use it more than 1 time a round. So do you get to use them 2 times during the encounter like it says in the description, or is it only 1 time period per day ??


Skornn

 

[Particle_Man]

1 time per day, period.

Not 2 times per day in one encounter.

 

[theNater]

So if all you can ever have is 3 why multiclass? If this is correct they would have been better off (IMHO) saying there is no such thing as multiclassing anymore. (Not even with feats.)

Multiclass so that you can be a fighter who can toss a fireball. Multiclass to get skill training in a skill you like, with the added bonus of a new power.

This I understand, but I think even if your an apprentice mage you should be able to learn more than 3 tricks. Your a very poor magician if you put on a show with only 3 tricks in your show.

A fighter who multiclasses into wizard is not an apprentice mage. He is a fighter who has picked up a few spells.

A wizard is not a stage magician. A stage magician is a performer. His ability to perform tricks is secondary to his ability to provide patter. A good stage magician can entertain a crowd for an hour with just 1 trick. A really good one can do it without any tricks at all.

Plus if your selecting powers from the mage side, your losing on the fighter side so it would balance out.

If you replace all of your fighter powers with wizard powers, you now have the armor, hit points, and healing surges of a fighter and the powers of a wizard. I fail to see how this is balanced.

OK - Class Specific feats give you a watered down power (or class feature) usually an at-will cut to daily or encounter, and training in another skill, (sometimes a specific skill). IMO - not worth a feat, but if we were able to select powers from that class then it's worth it.

If we assume that the Skill Training feat is about as valuable as any other feat, the class specific feats are worth much more than one feat.

Power-Swap feats let you swap 3 powers (1 each), IMO also not worth giving up a feat, but combined (4 feats) with access to other powers would be worth it.

You are not required to spend all of the feats. You can select to only spend feats on power swapping if the new power is good enough to be worth a feat.

Under the class-specific feats it states "A character who has taken a class-specific feat counts as a member of that class for meeting prerequisites for other feats and paragon paths."

Yet they do not give the channel divinity class feature of the cleric that is a prerequisite for most of the cleric feats, they do not grant you the rangers Archery or Two-Bladed fighting style class feature which is a prerequisite for every one of the ranger's paragon paths.

Correct. You meet the class prerequisite for these feats and paragon paths, but not the other prerequisite.

So there are obviously some mistakes, maybe it was an oversight that selecting powers from both (after time you multiclass) was omitted, and that the power-swap feats let you swap any power previous to taking the multiclass feat.

It is possible that those thing were excluded intentionally, rather than accidentally. Even if that is an error, that does not make it more likely that the inability to select powers from your second class is an error. Those are both related to class features, not powers.

Only having 3 powers from your second class, is meaningless. You would be better (IMHO) saying there is no such thing as multiclassing (or dabbling if you perfer).

3 powers is a non-negligible chunk of your total power list. Also, a character who takes a paragon path from the second class ends up with 6 powers from their second class.

You don't even have to acquire many abilities from your second class to make a meaningful difference. A fighter who can use Scorching Burst once per encounter is going to be quite distinct from one who cannot.

 

[lkj]

Pretty sure the answer is no--the retraining rules specify that you can swap out one power "from your class." Paragon multiclassing is giving you powers from another class, and that class is always identified as your "second class."

Now that I have a chance to look at the books (instead of going from memory), I think that you could be right. But I'm not sure it's so clearcut.

On Page 209: ". . . you can choose to continue to gain powers from that class rather than take a paragon path"

So, you've given up the paragon path. Multiclassing is not a paragon path. Otherwise I'd assume they would have said, you can 'multiclass as your paragon path'.
And note, this isn't a trivial distinction. You give up any class features that you would have gained from a paragon path. Meaning, overall you get 'less' in the sense that you get the same number of powers but less features.

Now, you're right, it does say 'your class' under the swap up. However, under the paragon multiclassing on page 209:

"In place of the paragon path encounter power . . . you can select any . . . power . . . from your second class."

It's still your class. It's just your second class. There's no distinction in the gaining levels section under swapping powers (pg 27-28) that precludes swapping up from a second class. It just says your class.

Here's the thing-- I'm not at all interested in gaming the system. I simply want to follow the rules as the designers intended. The question is whether being able to swap up powers from your second class overbalances the loss of class features from your paragon path.

I really don't know. I guess I'll have to send a question to customer service. Or maybe send 10 questions to customer service and take the average

AD

 

[zookeeper]

I have a question about the Warlord and Cleric multi-classing. It says you get Inspiring word from the Warlord, and Healing word from the cleric that you can use 1/day. The powers are both minor actions, but they also allow you to use them 2 times during the encounter, as long as you dont use it more than 1 time a round. So do you get to use them 2 times during the encounter like it says in the description, or is it only 1 time period per day ??


Skornn

The multiclassing feat into a cleric specifically states you may use it once per day. So that would be it - you can use it and target gets extra 1d6 healing. For a full blown cleric it is a special encounter power. Note keyword Special. And he can only use this 2 times per encounter.

 

[toxicspirit]

Is there something that specifically addresses this question?

The wording can be read in such a way as to give access to the Ability as written (which normally gives the user two 'surges'), but limited only to only one use per day as opposed to once per encounter as gained by Clerics themselves.