Multiple attacks and readying weapons - I am kinda lost...

[eriktheguy]

I'm 90% sure that any power with multiple targets uses 1 piece of ammo, thrown weapon etc. You're rogues blast 5 attack uses only a single +3 dagger against all the targets. It's easier book keeping. If you want the flavor to work better say he throws a bunch of mundane daggers and shurikens and toothpicks with the +3 dagger, but you still use the +3 dagger for all the attack rolls.

 

[Klaus]

I'm 90% sure that any power with multiple targets uses 1 piece of ammo, thrown weapon etc. You're rogues blast 5 attack uses only a single +3 dagger against all the targets. It's easier book keeping. If you want the flavor to work better say he throws a bunch of mundane daggers and shurikens and toothpicks with the +3 dagger, but you still use the +3 dagger for all the attack rolls.

Missile weapons, yes, you use one arrow/bolt/bullet per target. Mundane thrown weapons, yes, you need one shuriken/dagger/javelin per target (meaning you need Quick Draw to access those weapons). Magical thrown weapons require only one (like Batman throwing a batarang that ricochets to hit three thugs' guns off their hands).

 

[Garthanos]

Missile weapons, yes, you use one arrow/bolt/bullet per target. Mundane thrown weapons, yes, you need one shuriken/dagger/javelin per target (meaning you need Quick Draw to access those weapons). Magical thrown weapons require only one (like Batman throwing a batarang that ricochets to hit three thugs' guns off their hands).

So you are saying I "cannot" robinhood and william tell style bounce and deflect the single arrow? why?... its a perfectly good skinning of multiattack archery.. and since the arrow takes a wierd path its probably harder to find afterwards;-) - arrows that "miss" are probably the only ones requiring you hunt for them... but at some level hitpoints create enough abstraction that an arrow could threaten badly force a strained muscle and cause hitpoint damage .. it would be a hit .... which never broke skin... it could interupt one enemies attack causing that enemies sword to swing wildly harming his adjacent ally. It could take a bouncing path or just time it right while they are shifting around to skewer two in a row...I call this move shishkabob. I fire the bow... they both think I missed them till the bell falls on one of them and the pole it was attached to clonks the other.

"I fire a bloody barrage of arrows drawing two at a time legalos style as fast as I can and fire as many as possible -- I am pretty sure two of them will have a decent chance of hitting - dont think I have ever fired just one" .

"I take my time they keep moving around .. but there one arrow smashes into the shield the sheild bearer crashes backwords his spear killing his ally."

So the above is wrong bad fun...because someone thinks we need to be retentive about load time or ammo use? I am very certain that the powers let me do this just fine.. and were intended to.

If my player wants that trick shot fun -well there is as much legendry to support it with a bow or crossbow as throwing implements... ruling otherwise seems an unnecessary restriction of imagination.

 

[Tai]

Interestingly enough, if you have a magic javelin, not only can you attack twice using twin strike, but if your other hand is free, you get the versatile damage bonus ^^

 

[Klaus]

So you are saying I "cannot" robinhood and william tell style bounce and deflect the single arrow? why?... its a perfectly good skinning of multiattack archery.. and since the arrow takes a wierd path its probably harder to find afterwards;-) - arrows that "miss" are probably the only ones requiring you hunt for them... but at some level hitpoints create enough abstraction that an arrow could threaten badly force a strained muscle and cause hitpoint damage .. it would be a hit .... which never broke skin... it could interupt one enemies attack causing that enemies sword to swing wildly harming his adjacent ally. It could take a bouncing path or just time it right while they are shifting around to skewer two in a row...I call this move shishkabob. I fire the bow... they both think I missed them till the bell falls on one of them and the pole it was attached to clonks the other.

"I fire a bloody barrage of arrows drawing two at a time legalos style as fast as I can and fire as many as possible -- I am pretty sure two of them will have a decent chance of hitting - dont think I have ever fired just one" .

"I take my time they keep moving around .. but there one arrow smashes into the shield the sheild bearer crashes backwords his spear killing his ally."

So the above is wrong bad fun...because someone thinks we need to be retentive about load time or ammo use? I am very certain that the powers let me do this just fine.. and were intended to.

If my player wants that trick shot fun -well there is as much legendry to support it with a bow or crossbow as throwing implements... ruling otherwise seems an unnecessary restriction of imagination.

That's easy enough to handle: the DM can ask the archer/sniper to make his attack with a penalty (say, -1 or -2), or to lower the damage die by one size (d10 to d8), and let the character shoot without spending as many arrows. But that's a house rule, mind you, not RAW.

 

[relmskye]

I don't think a character should need quick draw or a magic weapon in order to use its multi-attack powers with thrown weapons, so long as sufficient ammunition is available. If a crossbow's load time is included in multi-attack action, then so should be the time to pull out additional throwing weapons.

I like the thought of the rogue, just very occasionally, pulling out two handfuls of shuriken and unleashing them, ninja style, in a flurry of flying metal (blinding barrage). Or the thought of a ranger going all out, pulling out javelin after javelin in one fluid motion. They conjure an exciting and cool cinematic image.

And then, after they've used these powers, they're left without a weapon at hand, which could potentially leave them vulnerable or short on actions if they don't possess quick draw.

 

[Regicide]

So you are saying I "cannot" robinhood and william tell style bounce and deflect the single arrow? why?

It just depends on how nonsensical you want your game to be. Some people like bows and arrows to act somewhat like bows and arrows, and some like cartoons and Xena that are aimed at 8-year-olds who think that if 1 kick while in the air is cool, 50 kicks while in the air is 50 times cooler *dribble dribbel* when is WWE on, oh yeah, man-slamming action!

I tend to think that if people are requiring a bow to shoot an arrow, then the arrows should act like an arrow. If they want silly bouncing things, then play a wizard. As Lucy Lawless explained, anything that happens that can't be explained... a wizard did it!

 

[Garthanos]

That's easy enough to handle: the DM can ask the archer/sniper to make his attack with a penalty (say, -1 or -2), or to lower the damage die by one size (d10 to d8), and let the character shoot without spending as many arrows. But that's a house rule, mind you, not RAW.

Looks to me like you are proposing a house rule to do something the house rules already allow me to do ... everyone of those descriptions can work just fine with twin strike. (scratch that--- your house rule isnt half bad mix in with 2 or three quality of arrows I propose and its golden -- )

In a campaign where the dm wants to track every arrow ... my single arrow fancy shot character loses more of his arrows than a more straight forward shooter and more of them are broken and unrecoverable. (so the player writes off two abstract ammo supply units ) and we have to buy more arrows at the same time. A lot of games people do not track ammo useage any more than they track spell components

I spend twice as much money per arrow so I can find them easier .. my buddy who describes every arrow fired as more than one buys really cheap ones and still looks around carefully.

 

[Garthanos]

It just depends on how nonsensical you want your game to be.

I know how to use a bow and have a solid pattern with a nice quick draw time.. ( I have no interest in playing me in a funny suit exactly )

Legalos style double knock is nonsensical ... Most of the single arrow trick shots I described involved using timing (skewering through one guy and in to another) or a single arrow with luck and the environment (including two enemies adjacent to one another) being exploited to deliver damage. Not the bouncing arrow...

but if that is what a player wanted .. let them spend twice as much per arrow (or something similar) dont spoil there fun.

R you are a grand an insulting snarly dude arent you.

 

[Garthanos]

I don't think a character should need quick draw or a magic weapon in order to use its multi-attack powers with thrown weapons, so long as sufficient ammunition is available.

Bingo.. and by RAW they dont.

Several options work and leave the players description about there arrow use up to them

1 is let the character purchase high balance 'trick shot' arrows that are effectively pulling out two when they go to do a multi attack. If people want there character to use these but dont do multi shot attacks .. explain they break less often so they are able to recover them more easily. You can also allow them to buy really cheap ones which break and splinter more often.

2 is not tracking arrows any more than you track the bat quano the warlock used in his last spell (you will find threads with support for this idea and I dont mind it because - for one thing I hate accounting = but I do know there are players who like the numbers and would be upset if we didnt dot the i's.)

3) house rule like klaus suggested and allow twin strike to cost one of the normal cost arrows but with some penalty on performance.

Remember realistic tracking of arrows may have your characters spending a good 5 minutes hunting in the grass per fired arrow .. so how many rest periods in a row are we taking this time mister ranger. (remember an arrow which delivers hit point damage did not necessarily get stuck in your target or deliver a gash or scratch.. it might have resulted in him dodging and straining a muscle or running a little more out of luck etc.. your arrow merrily diving into the folliage or breaking on the cace wall).

I suspect the player of the archer character will like the idea of purchasing more expensive arrows for his ranger.

I do like the house rule idea of allowing a pc using the normal arrows to spend some effort (reducing the quality of his attack in some fashion to reduce the ammo cost of his attacks .. it wouldnt have to be anything to do with trick shots or multi attacks... just paying more attention to where the sily things go after you fire would be enough of an excuse... it makes them easier to find afterwards).

when dungeon delving there less hunting and more cussing about the arrows being broke instead of lost.