Mutants & Masterminds Quirks

[Synicism]

So I've been flipping through my copy of M&M. While I think that it's by far the best implementation of the d20 system to date and a really good game, it's got two quirks that sort of irk me. I was wondering if anyone out there had a solution.

1. The Protection power is kind of overpowering. If a character maxes out his Protection power, he's totally immune to any attacks of characters of a lower power level, unless they have their Strength to add to the damage bonus.

2. The dilemma of "Captain Dumptruck." Under the improvised weapon rules, there's an ambiguity. It says their damage bonus is equal to the character's strength bonus, but it's not at all clear whether that adds to the character's strength bonus or not. So if you hit someone with a heavy object (like a dumptruck), you get one of two results: either it's just like hitting someone with your Strength (at which point it's simply a matter of flavor), or it's like hitting someone with twice your Strength.

It's this second interpretation that bothers me. Carried to the maximum extreme, a character with a 20 natural strength and 20 levels of superstrength (+25 Str bonus), who hits another character with a dumptruck gives a DC 65 damage save (15 +25 Str bonus + 25 improves weapon damage).

A character with a 20 natural Con and 20 levels of super-constitution has a Con bonus of +25. 20 levels of Amazing Save gives him a total of +45. This super-brick CANNOT save against getting hit by a dumptruck and will probably be instantly KO'd.

Something about this strikes me as just wrong. Any suggestions on how to fix it?

 

[bolen]

maybe allow a "natural 20" to save?

 

[Rich34]

Yeah, the Protection thing bugs me a bit. There are a couple of things to consider - a critical increases the damage rating, and there's always the feat Penetrating Attack. But that makes Pentrating Attack a feat that everyone would pretty much have to take, which I dislike. I don't want all characters to have the same feat. It's more of a problem with ranged attacks, since they don't usually get anything added to their damage.

I'm not sure what to do - Protection should offer more than Amazing Save, since it costs more, but my initial impression (not having actually played the game) is that Protection is just too buff. Maybe make it so that you only avoid the Damage save if the attack's damage rating is reduced to -3 or something.

Haven't a clue about the improvised weapons.

Richard

 

[Synicism]

The only think I have been able to think of with Protection is to drop the cost on it but make it provide only a fraction of its power level in protection. It kind of nerfs the power though.

 

[Voneth]

From the M&M game designer, Steve Kenson, on Protection:

"For folks who want a weaker but still effective form of Protection, I recommend changing it to attacks reduced below -5 damage bonus have no effect. That way damage bonuses within 5 of the target's Protection still have a slight chance of inflicting damage, but minor attacks still ping right off. For example, a Protection +10 character might suffer damage from a +5 damage attack, but a +4 or lesser attack won't do anything. "

Protection is written the way it is on purpose to simulate the nigh-invulnerable brick guy who can shake off more mundane damage. The point to fighting such a character is to NOT hit him.
To further quote Steve ...

" ... there are lots and lots of powers that don't do damage but can very effectively incapacitate: Dazzle, Fatigue, Snare, Slick, Stun, and Suffocate to name a few. They all require Fortitude or Reflex saves, and Protection doesn't work against them."

And let's not forget the classic scenario of "Mental Blast" on a brick. For M&M, he has to do a Will Save with a DC 15 + the Mental Blast rank.

As for improvised weapons, you only get your strength bonus or twice the hardness of the item, whichever is less. As in the example following the rule, Juice only hits the Pugilist for +12 damage total, not +24 (+12 for strength and +12 for the misunderstood bonus).

The best use of the rule is for getting reach (such as knocking out a pesky flyer) or range with your Strength damage. Depending on the object, you can also add an area affect, attack multiple targets at once or attack an Energy Field and let it damage the weapon instead of themselves. Sharp improvised weapon can change a stun attack to a lethal one, while wrapping a lamp post around someone could create a Snare effect.

 

[Desdichado]

Doesn't that make protection just exactly the power that Juggernaut has, then? Maybe it's too good, but it seems to be accurately based on the comic book world, at least.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

with characters of identical levels, the Protection power is barely more useful than simply wearing an armor or having ''amazing save : damage''

Take PL 10 PC with one PC having protection +10

In my current group everyone could muster a physical attack powerful enough to affect such a PC except for the Telepath (who'd use the Mental Blast power anyway).

There's a Wolf avatar with superstrenght +5 and Claws +5 and +3 to strenght with penetrating attack. His claws get through and then some.

There's a Telekinetic with blasts at +10. Check.

There's a Speedster with Mach 1 punch, +9 super speed and 12 of Strenght. Check.

Using Power attack could allow a Punisher Type using conventional firearms to muster a +10 to damage.

And of course there are all the methods to dispatch such the Protection dude without even hitting him.

Make it any less powerful and you might as well ban the power altogether because everyone and his dog choose another method to raise the damage save instead.

 

[Warchild]

So I've been flipping through my copy of M&M. While I think that it's by far the best implementation of the d20 system to date and a really good game, it's got two quirks that sort of irk me. I was wondering if anyone out there had a solution.

1. The Protection power is kind of overpowering. If a character maxes out his Protection power, he's totally immune to any attacks of characters of a lower power level, unless they have their Strength to add to the damage bonus.

Well there a a whole host of ways around protection. If your strength + super strength. With a standard campaign power level set at 10 you could have you could have a 20 str (+5 damage) Superstrength at +10, which would let him hit hurt. There is also the Strike power, Weapon power (melee weapons anyway), Superspeed/Mach 1 punch, etc. So there are several powers that could overcome Protection.

There is also power attack, sneak attack, Penetrating attack, critical hits,hmmm.....all of a sudden..my npc's with protection don't feel so safe!

Also remember, if a an attack gets past that protection, the character is in real trouble, because his damage save is likely be pretty low since the power level (in this instance +10) is the max amount of protection/damage bonus the character can get from powers. So if an attack gets past the protection...ouch.

 

[Yellow Sign]

After looking over the Protection rules, at first I thought it was overpowered but now I don't think so. With equal power levels, protection would not protect you any more than Super Con or Amazing Save at max.

Titan has a 20 STR (+5) and Super STR +10 for a total damage bonus of +15.
Ocular has a 20 CON (+5) and Protection +10.

Titan takes a swing at Ocular and hits him. Ocular's Protection drops Titan's melee damage bonus to +5. So Ocular has to make a Damage Save (DC 15+5) of 20 with a +5 to his roll. Pretty even.

The only time Protection would really kick in is if the Protection level is much higher that the combined damage bonus that a hero or villian could put out. While this might hurt a energy blaster who is attacking a Epic Villian, he should have some sort of attack that can bypass the Protection like Dazzle, Penetrating, etc.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I think the big benefit of protection if that every hit you take lowers your daamge save by 1. Protection doesn't boost your damage save it instead reduces the DC of the save needed, by reducing the power fo the attack. With protection I can keep some base level of defense and not worry to much about geting beat down over time.(at least that's how I interpret it so far)

As for it invalidating some attacks. Well this sin't Marvel so there ar a ton of ways around it outside ofusing diffeent style attack powers. Power attack is the biggie in my mind and it and the others have already been mentioned.