My Gut Reaction to Book of Nine Swords

[gribble]

Umm, who is being a bit rude now? The moral of the story is there are plenty of things in the game that can kill even the most "overpowered" of classes.

Right, but that wasn't the moral that Ranger5 claimed at the end of his post:

So the moral of the story? I would say at least give the new supplements a shot before deciding that they're "broken".

I happen to agree with Felon that it was the worst "moral of" story ever, as his story had no relation whatsoever as to how broken (or not) the warblade is...

I could just as easily say that a great wyrm red dragon and a kobold are both "balanced" encounters for a 13th level party, because both could roll a 1 on their saves when the party wizard tried to disintegrate them...

Even your (slightly revised) moral doesn't say much - just because plenty of things can kill a character with an "overpowered" class, it doesn't make the class any less overpowered...

 

[Ghendar]

Yes, the new classes are all significantly more powerful than a Fighter (at mid to high levels, anyway). Why? Because part of the book's purpose is to correct a large flaw in the D&D rules - Non-spellcasters (especially Fighters) are much weaker than spellcasters at high levels. Try actually comparing what a spellcaster can do at high levels versus what a melee type can do, and you'll see what I mean. Even the most high-damage-dealing Barbarian has nothing on spellcasters that can end the fight before their opponents get a turn.

I'm not saying I disagree but for me this is no problem at all. It has always made sense that a high level wizard will dish out more damage than your typical fighter. It's why they are there. <shrug>

 

[Krelios]

Perhaps this is 3.5's ripest fruit, and 4e will be a return to simplicity and classic archetypes.

Of course it will. Every edition of D&D starts off simple and innovative, then power creep sells books until it's completely broken and the process begins again. The only new thing for 3rd edition is the relatively short time for a version turn-around compared to its predecessor.

 

[Ghendar]

If you would have, you may have realized this book was never for you.

As I said, I am a collector and the book is part of the 3.5 edition. Therefore it is for me because of that reason alone. Even if I never use it in my campaigns or use it minimally, I still want to have it because it is part of the collection. I really can't explain it any more than that and if you don't understand then you do not have a collector's mentality, which is fine if you don't, but don't let it cloud your judgment of why I purchase things. The very fact of the matter is I did not purchase this book for its inherent uses, however I would like to offer my two cents to those who do make the purchase for such reasons.

I can empathize.
Once I was right there with ya. Buy eveything. All it took to break me of that was buying a couple books that I didn't use and have still never used. To me, it's just wasted money now, but to each his own.

 

[Ranger5]

Right, but that wasn't the moral that Ranger5 claimed at the end of his post:

Ahh..I keep forgetting that both Felon and gribble have full insightful knowledge of what I am thinking by what I type...

In reality satori01 was able to get what I meant. So let me say it again more plainly.

Just because rules may seem overpowered or broken on paper does not necessairly mean they are during play. Case in point, the spell Delay Death caused quite an uproar in my gaming group when it was first brought to light. And even afterwards during the first few sessions it was used it still seemed overpowered. But then we realized it was being used incorrectly. And once we figured that out the spell was not overpowered at all.

Anyway just my opinion and experiences and no need to make seemingly personal attacks on it.

 

[librarius_arcana]

Perhaps this is 3.5's ripest fruit, and 4e will be a return to simplicity and classic archetypes.

"Hudson may be right"

 

[Kunimatyu]

I'm curious to hear a fix for the Warblade. Move action manuever recovery? d8/d10 HD?

I don't mind having other options like this available to my players. Playing a fighter is incredibly boring, and once you hit the higher levels, you either rely on magical equipment or play second fiddle to the spellcasters the whole time. Having a class that brings some thought in is not a bad idea.

Now, if I was running more Conan-themed game, I wouldn't allow Nine Swords material. But, if I was running Conan, I'd probably use True20 anyways, as D&D magic in general doesn't capture the feel I want.

 

[gribble]

Ahh..I keep forgetting that both Felon and gribble have full insightful knowledge of what I am thinking by what I type...

I can't speak for Felon, but I never claimed to have any knowledge of what you were thinking - I merely quoted what you had typed directly. If what you typed wasn't actually what you were thinking, I can hardly be blamed for that...

Apologies if you were confused again my me attacking your rather weak arguments about why warblades are balanced, which as I understand it amounted to "just because rules may seem overpowered or broken on paper does not necessairly mean they are during play" (which I have, and seeing it in play reinforced my opinion that the warblade is unbalanced). As satori01 inadvertantly highlighted, the specific example you used to "prove" this point was irrelevent as just because "there are plenty of things in the game that can kill even the most 'overpowered' of classes" it doesn't show at all how a class is or isn't balanced. Regardless, I never intended my rebuttal of your arguments as personal attacks, though on the internet it's easy for people to become confused between attacks on their persons and attacks on their arguments.

Anyway, enough of this silliness. Back to the point of the thread - to discuss the warblade:

 

[Beckett]

what do people think needs to be done to balance the books main flaw, the warblade?

Nothing, yet.

Right now, the people at WotC are the ones who have played with it the most, and they felt it was balanced enough to include in the book. Right now, it looks a little too much on paper. Maybe the WotC gang screwed up; they're as prone to it as random people on a message board.

I'm going to see how it works in play at my table. I've got a player lined up to start one this Sunday. He understands that I might modify the class, but since I haven't seen how it plays, any changes at this point would be premature (I'm reminded of a story about a guy who is taken to dinner for a job interview. He salts his food before he tastes it, and doesn't get the job).

The character in question is a gestalt dwarf warblade/cleric; I'm thinking the diversity of stats might balance the character just fine.

 

[gribble]

I'm curious to hear a fix for the Warblade. Move action manuever recovery? d8/d10 HD?

I've started a discussion on this at the House Rules forum:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=174415