SteveC said:
That may be, but as long as you say "these abilities plus bonus feats are better than anything the fighter has," I'm going to disagree. Just because you keep ignoring an argument doesn't make it any weaker,
I'm sorry, but refusing to go over ground that has already been covered does not constitue ignoring an arguement.
I have, in a prior thread, gone through a detailed side by side of the WB and the Fighter.
For every feat that the fighter gest the WB gets either a feat or a special ability (maybe like one less at early levels, it has been a few weeks) THEN the WB gets maneuvers and stances on top of that. Plus more HP, more SP, better skill selection. It is a slam dunk.
and in this case, the fighter is all about bonus feats, and that's what the designers of 3.0/3.5 thought balanced them against every other class that has a +1 BAB. The fighter was the class that got the least rebalancing in 3.5, and I can only assume it is because the designers place a very high value on those feats. There is a growing consensus that this is not an especially well-balanced design, but we won't see a new fighter called a "fighter" until 4.0.
So are you saying that the WB is no better than the fighter or that it is ok that the WB is better because the fighter is weak?
Are the five class features that I mentioned better than five fighter feats? Well, you could take toughness five times, and in that case the answer is definitely "no." In general, I'd take five bonus feats from the fighter list against those abilities, especially if we're talking about feats included in the PHB2.
--Steve
Taking bits and pieces out of context is misleading.
As I said, the WB gets a class feature or feat for nearly every feat and then gets manuevers and stances ON TOP and HP and SP as gravy.
The arguement has been presented several times that the manuevers are roughly equivalent to the feats. For sake of argument I'll accept that. I certainly will not accept that they are less. For sake of arguement I will also accept that the class features you listed are less than the value of five feats. But not less than, say, half the value.
So if they've got on class feature that is equal to all the feats, then they have some feats, then they have some other class features that are worth (conservatively) half as much as feats, then they have better skills to pick from, then they have more hp, then they have more sp, well, the math becomes pretty dang clear.
1 << 1 + 0.5 + 0.3 + 0.1 + 0.1