My phone call with Creg Leeds

WalterKovacs

First Post
Eventually all the forced change for the sake of change will alienate nearly everyone.

If the goal is to change every decade odds are that:

(a) There will be enough of a certain edition that anything remotely similar to it would have a hard time competiting with it ... Paizo didn't throw out all the 3.5 expansions with 3.75, it had to allow reverse compatibility so that it was supplementing 3.5, not replacing it. 4e couldn't do that if it wanted to actually sell.

(b) There will be enough expansions built up to make entry into the game difficult. Even before things like power creep are added, there is going to be a lot of stuff involved that makes it harder to get into the game. A reboot would give a chance to get people back in again with a lower barrier for entry.

(c) Trends change. Sure the Lord of the Rings movies introduced another generation to Tolkien, but with Harry Potter and WoW and such, there are different fantasy books out there that people are being introduced to. 10 years is a long time, in the musical comparison ... rarely does music go over a decade without changing to some degree.

(d) People age, plain and simple. They can't market exclusively or primarily to the people they marketed to 10 years ago, or 20 years ago. It doesn't make sense. Older people are less likely to want to make a change, it's why younger kids and teens are marketted to heavily, to get them before they develop brand loyalty.

In general, nothing is built to last anymore. It's just not a wise idea. Now, if they could get things entirely into ddi (i.e. only subscription based) like WoW, they could actually pick one edition and stick with it forever, because then they would get a constant revenue stream, and just have minor tweaks and expansions constantly. However if you are only getting paid once for the books you put out, you need to make sure you get more out of the book than you put into it.
 

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JohnRTroy

Adventurer
As far as their boardgames go, well, I have Transformers Risk. I like it. It does change some rules, and does offer some variety. I know I wouldn't be happy if all I got was some different risk pieces or a map, without any real meat to it. Probably why I'm never tempted by any of those themed Monopoly's. Either that, or I just have no desire to buy any college football stadiums.

I can't speak for Magic, but these "vanity" boardgames are the minority and pale in comparison to the classic Risk, Monopoly, etc. A game is still a good game no matter how much time has passed. Look at Chess.


That hasn't been a problem since the 80s? There have been lots of changes over the years.

Yet at its core, there's still this thing we call D&D.

4e is apparently the most radical change. The thing is, how much of the core is core. I think 4e is a bit much. Other RPGs release new editions, but from what I've seen, they are usually evolutionary. GURPS, CoC, Storyteller and others haven't changed that much compared to the 3e / 4e gap. If by core you mean "just a fantasy game" that's not enough, IMO, for D&D to be strong.

It makes sense for long-term strategy for games that you don't rock the boat too much. If you want D&D as something you can pass down to your kids and grand kids, you need a core base, such as Risk and Monopoly. If each generation has to learn all new rules it's not going to be a long-term property. I would really like D&D to last over 100 years. I don't subscribe to the whole "RPG evolution" theories that have been proposed over the years.

If this "constant change" strategy was viable, then Hasbro would be doing it to all their boardgames. They don't. While I accept revisions and clarifications, at the core a solid game is still static. Settler's of Catan has been around for a while and rules options have been created, but at its core it's still the same game.
 

Piratecat

Sesquipedalian
Hey, guys. Heads up. Discussing the conversation is great; insulting or ridiculing people, including Greg Leeds, is absolutely not. Don't do so.
 

Primal

First Post
Well, Ed can be a little too verbose at times. I am really not sure that "Roof Tiles of Iriaebor" and "Drainpipes of Sembia" would sell...

On the other hand, I would pre-order "Gutters of Sembia," a sourcebook on street gangs, dark alleys, and backstabbing merchants - in a heartbeat. Of course, it would have to be the REAL Sembia, not the "we ran out of inspiration so we had the Shades conquer it" 4E mockery.

Hey! I actually *have* asked him on Candlekeep about drainpipes in Cormyr... and I would pay for that kind of details! :)
 

WalterKovacs

First Post
If this "constant change" strategy was viable, then Hasbro would be doing it to all their boardgames. They don't. While I accept revisions and clarifications, at the core a solid game is still static. Settler's of Catan has been around for a while and rules options have been created, but at its core it's still the same game.

In terms of board games, the ones that have lasted the test of time, from checkers/chess, to monopoly and heck ... twister. They have one thing in common. There is no design/development involved. The rules are already set. It's just down to marketing and producing it. They may have some new way of packaging it (like replacing the money with electronics) but they don't need to come up with a new rules system. The reason is that game is self contained, will have no expansions, and is effectively neutral for players. At the start of the game, no player has the advantage. If anyone is given the advantage, it's because of luck. In the case of Chess, the only 'luck' is the ability to go first. In Monopoly, that could mean you get to properties first, but rarely will it prove to be that great of an advantage.

However, with a system that has customizable parts, be it a collectible card game, or a role playing game, it's harder to have that 'balance'. Also, when one of the core aspects of the game is ability to customize, there is a demand for more options.

Ultimately, D&D as a 'board game' that is a small, relatively self contained game that is evergreen is probably not going to work. How many board games that have been selling strong for a long time are recent inventions? How many of the new board games that aren't just old games repackaged actually stick around in the long run? I'm not sure if the market for D&D is big enough where it could become the next Risk.

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On an unrelated note:

Why they don't do 3 and 4 products at the same time:

If they were producing for two product lines at the same time, they'd need to have two teams, one working on 3x, one working on 4e. In a 'perfect world' the people that are working on a system are able to balance new stuff against the entirety of the existing system. Obviously that's going to be easier for the smaller system, but also for the people that have been working with that system for a while. If you had to work with two systems simultaneously, or even being moved from one to the other, it would become more likely that things can slip through. So, in order to make sure both products got their due, each would need it's own people working on it, at least from the mechanical perspective. I'm not sure if the potential for selling new 3.5 material is enough incentive for WOTC to hire more people and/or reassign people working in other areas. Considering the ammount of used books (or books sold to retailers that have not been sold to customers) out there, odds are that WOTC wouldn't be making any money off the core 3.5 books anymore, which is probably part of the equation right there.

It just doesn't make sense for a single company to be producing two products that each require their own design & development teams in order to create products that are incompatible with each other and yet also targetted at the same niche market. It doesn't make financial sense. Rules-light/system independent is something that would make sense, but there is no reason that WOTC should produce new 3.5 content themselves, nor would I think people would want the finished product (since it would probably be better to come from a group that is actively testing and developping 3.5 instead of someone 'coming back to it'.)

Honestly though, the people who feel that WOTC don't care ... what do you want them to do? And since time travel isn't possible, that means going forward? Undoing 4e isn't a possibility. They can't just scrap 4e and go back to doing 3.5, besides it not making financial sense to abandon 4e now, there would likely need to be some time before new products for 3.5 would come out as you at least need the normal development cycle time before they can crank new stuff out if it only goes into the pipeline now. What changes could they possibly make at this time that would satisfy people? I know the pdf policy is definitely one thing they can change that shows they care. However, if they have some sort of new digital distribution methods that they hope is harder to pirate ... they would be shooting themselves in the foot to leave the content available in pdf format, since pirates are using those pdfs to create the pirated pdfs that are floating around.

The pdf issue I understand. But those that feel that WOTC/Leeds have just told the anti-4e crowd that he 'doesn't care about them' ... what would be required to show that they do care. Ultimately though ... they are making 4e, and if you don't like it, they probably can't change your mind about that. Producing something other than 4e, unless it's something like minis or dungeon tiles or rules-lite high-fluff books, isn't really a viable option for them. So, criticism from people that have made it quite clear they want no part in what you are selling isn't necessarily what is going to get you customers. They can't redesign 4e from the ground up, so there is only so much flexibility they can have. It is probably better to admit defeat to Paizo for those that want to stick with 3x (and hope they continue playing.) In the long run, if there is another radical change, they'll be effectively marketting to all existing and former D&D players again. Even if it's a system change, it's easier to market to someone that is 'in the loop' as far as RPGs are concerned.

If someone is playing pathfinder, or DM'ing pathfinder ... they are a lot more likely to be in contact with someone that knows about what's happening with D&D than someone that is completely out of roleplaying. In that sense "as long as they are playing D&D" is a way of looking at those who aren't playing in to 4e as at least someone that has a good chance of hearing your marketting pitch, even if they are unlikely to listen to it.
 



Brix

Explorer
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On an unrelated note:

Why they don't do 3 and 4 products at the same time:

That's what I asked him, too. He said that will not happen (since they seem to be absolutely fine with 4E and leave the rest to other companies without hesitating - so it be)
 

Wicht

Hero
* Wizards is happy with the 4E sales. Wizards is even fine with the fact that a fraction of the gamers went to Paizo. As long as everybody plays D&D that's fine.

Though I am discouraged that Wizards has decided it really does not need me as a customer, I am happy that they acknowledge that the game of Dungeons and Dragons is bigger than the brand of D&D. Pathfinder RPG = Dungeons and Dragons. True20 = Dungeons and Dragons. One need not feel guilty to not support the brand if one wants to support the game.
 

avin

First Post
Nothing news, not impressed.

I got this feeling he's just talking to be polite but doing whatever is his agenda, without caring too much about fanbase.
 

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