My thoughts of Roles - from Races and Classes

kennew142

First Post
WotC_Miko said:
Not when the sidebar right under the leader role discussion (all of a paragraph, btw) flat-out says it's not. Oh, what the hey, here's the text:

Leader, Not Boss
Clerics and warlords (and other leaders) encourage and motivate their adventuring companions, but just because they fill the leader role doesn’t mean they’re necessarily a group’s spokesperson or commander. The “party leader”—if the group has one—might as easily be a charismatic warlock or authoritative paladin. Leaders (the role) fulfill their function through their mechanics; party leaders are born through roleplaying.

I have to say that I'm glad this is in the text. Personally, I loathe the idea of a party leader. While I dislike the name, I can't think of one that better sums up the role. I was more apprehensive because of some of the posts I've seen arguing in favor of these classes being the party leader.

I still doubt that there is any correlation between natural leaders (among the players) and the class/role that player chooses in the game. I have seen the players of fighters, clerics, wizards, sorcerers, even bards gravitating towards de facto party leadership.

I should amend the first sentence to say that I don't mind a de facto leader arising in a party, but I dislike the idea of the party choosing a leader. Everyone should be as much a part of the decision making process as they desire.
 

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Wolfspider

Explorer
Najo said:
I am thoroughly impressed with the human flaw too. Brilliant and very thought provoking. I would love to have been there when the designers hit that idea, and knew it was the one. It stirs something inside when you read it.

If by flaw you you mean the fact that humans are inherently "corruptable," then that idea also really stirred something inside me...when I read it decades ago in the works of Tolkien.

It's a good idea, and I'm glad that they're implementing it, but it's really not a new idea by a long shot.
 

Xyl

First Post
Wolfspider said:
If by flaw you you mean the fact that humans are inherently "corruptable," then that idea also really stirred something inside me...when I read it decades ago in the works of Tolkien.

It's a good idea, and I'm glad that they're implementing it, but it's really not a new idea by a long shot.

"Good artists borrow, great artists steal."
 

Raven Crowking

First Post
"Support" is unfun. Leaders get to do fun things.

I suspect that the reason there isn't a "bard" (by that name) in the PHB1 for 4e is that the "Warlord" is the renamed bard. Bards are unfun. Warlords are fun.

See how that works? :lol:

RC
 


infax

First Post
While I don't expect the Leader to have any ability of compulsion over fellow party members, I do think there will be groups in which the Cleric or the Warlord will be assumed to lead solely because it is described as his party role. That isn't specially aggravating, but it can be annoying at times (having played in groups whose DM always required someone to be elected the "party leader" and often seeing such things being determined not based on ability or inclination but rather artificial expectations as "the Fighter, of course, he is the strongest" or "the character with the highest charisma, obviously").

In my experience, many players that end up in the leader role take on more active classes like Fighter or Wizard. But that may be due to the significant lack of clerics in most of the groups I have played. 3.xe Bards where character "who place others (through suggestions, commands, pleading, what have you) in situations where they can use their strengths and who inspire others when the chips are down" and I never saw a Bard as a party leader in a D&D game.

I still think that "Cleric" should be reserved for a character whose primary role would be to conduct masses, offer spiritual advice, serve as an ethic compass and lead congregations. Much of that isn't what a member of a party group will be doing and if so, he's abilities are wasted on such a small group of disparate individuals rather than in a community. From my perspective, most D&D "Clerics" are rather just another form of Holy Warrior - wearing armor and wielding a weapon while blasting enemies in a battlefield.

@WotC_Miko:
Hey, that's great. I guess designers couldn't think of a better name for Leaders than. Otherwise, I can't see a reason to take a name that naturally leads one to associate the role with "Boss" and then have to write a sidebar saying it is a Leader, but not a Boss.

Thanks for the insider info anyway, WotC_Miko.
 

Midknightsun

Explorer
Not when the sidebar right under the leader role discussion (all of a paragraph, btw) flat-out says it's not. Oh, what the hey, here's the text:

Leader, Not Boss
Clerics and warlords (and other leaders) encourage and motivate their adventuring companions, but just because they fill the leader role doesn’t mean they’re necessarily a group’s spokesperson or commander. The “party leader”—if the group has one—might as easily be a charismatic warlock or authoritative paladin. Leaders (the role) fulfill their function through their mechanics; party leaders are born through roleplaying.

Thanks for the post Miko, its much appreciated and pretty much confirms my own suspicions.
 

Michele Carter

First Post
Raven Crowking said:
I suspect that the reason there isn't a "bard" (by that name) in the PHB1 for 4e is that the "Warlord" is the renamed bard.

Untrue. As has been stated multiple times, the bard still exists and will appear as a distinct class.
 

Scribble

First Post
Wolfspider said:
If by flaw you you mean the fact that humans are inherently "corruptable," then that idea also really stirred something inside me...when I read it decades ago in the works of Tolkien.

It's a good idea, and I'm glad that they're implementing it, but it's really not a new idea by a long shot.

Or Shakespeare, or Beowulf, or Anne Rice, or The Bible, or The King Arthur Stuff... Or well... just about anything dealing with humans.
 

Rechan

Adventurer
"Leader" takes the bitter sting out of the word "Support".

"Support" carries the connotation of a spear carrier, a cheerleader, a medic for the other characters. A "Support" character rarely gets the glory, rarely is a hero.

And I think the worry that "Leader=Person who makes decisions on behalf of all the party all the time" is about as realistic as "Controller=Is in control of the party and can make them do what he wants because he has Control over them".
 

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