Mystic Theurge as a core class?

[Tidus4444]

I admire the attempt that wizards made with the mystic theurge, but I disliked its execution. It does nothing to allieviate the problems at low level, and it's pretty overpowered at high levels. So I want to make a core class that has both arcane and divine spellcasting right from the get-go.

My theory here is to combine the worst of the wizard with the worst of the sorcerer. Take the Sorcerer's spells learned table. Take the wizard's spells per day table, but put it at a -1 level. For example, a level 1 mystic theurge would have 3 0 level spells and 1 1st level spell as his wizard counterpart would have. However, at second level, he would still have only 1 1st level spell and 3 0th level spells. At level 3 he would get 4/2, and at level 4 he'd get 4/3/1, or have the casting power as a level 3 wizard. Theurges would also have to prepare arcane spells as a wizard does.

I'm thinking of a similar thing for the cleric part of the class. Have a very limited number of spells per day as the wizard above. That still seems a bit unbalancing, however. I am considering forcing the Cleric part of this class to learn his spells (but with the sorcerer chart or the wizard one?), or perhaps dropping the spontaneous healing that clerics get. Any feedback will be appreciated.

 

[The Great Bear King]

True Druids

How close is this?

True Druids

Druids or the oak wise were the priests of the ancient Celts and acted as spiritual counsel and performed sacrifices. They were considered to be seers and prophets, as well as philosophers, scientists, and wizards. They also worshiped a god they called either Dagda or Be’al whom they believed to be the chief of all gods. Though they may have performed human sacrifice all the victims were condemned murders, rapists, and traitors.

Hit Dice: d6

Saving Throws: Fort; Good, Will; Good, Reflex; Poor

Base Attack Bonus: Poor

Weapons:

Sickle, Dagger, Club, Net,
Blow Gun, Hand Axe, and Scimitar

Armor: Must be natural (wood, rock, leather, or hide)

Divine Spells: as druid
Arcane Spells: as wizard
One Domain: any but Law or Evil

Nature Sense, Resist Nature's Lure
Venom Immunity, Timeless Body
Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Remove Disease,
Familiar, Scribe Scroll, and Brew Magical Potion

Alignment: must be good

Class skills: as wizard plus diplomacy

Skill Points: (4+Int)x4 at first level, 4+Int every level afterwards.

Other classes: They get along well enough with barbarians, rangers, wizards and magi. They have little or no patience for clerics (whom they consider to be priests of lesser gods) and often times call rouges thieves instead. They respect paladins for their honor, decency and piety (though they are a little worried about the lawful ones). They dislike sorcerers and think of witches and warlocks as both heretics and asylum escapees. Shamans however are considered equals. Black guards, Death Knights, paladins of tyranny and slaughter as well as other evil classes are thought of as abominations and blasphemies. All other classes are viewed with a neutral attitude.

 

[swordsmasher]

In my campaign, I axed the Mystic Theurge, and just let the Sorcerer select his spells from any spell list.

 

[Merlion]

Yea, I tend to think simply breaking down the Arcane/Divine divide (which is rather artificial anyway) and/or just allowing more overlap in spell lists is probably easier.

I see the Mystic Theurge as mainly just a way for Wizards and Sorcerers to gain access to a lot of "divine" type effects that they should really have anyway.

 

[Vrecknidj]

Another solution is to allow an altered cleric class.

Pick some deity of magic and have this deity grant to his clerics the ability to select one arcane spell per level (similar to how a wizard gets two when he levels up). The cleric then has access to these particular arcane spells just as he has access to the rest of his cleric spells. This ability replaces one domain.

The arcane spells are balanced by the cleric's arcane spell failure problem which applies when he casts the arcane spells.

This guy will still have a better BAB, saves and hit points than a wizard, but, unlike a wizard, he cannot learn spells by adding them to a spellbook.

Oh, and of course he'll need the appropriate Int score to even be able to get these spells. So, if you're playing in a point-buy system, this cleric can't afford to use Int as a dump stat.

Dave

 

[Merlion]

Eh...I'm wary of anything like that personally. The Cleric is already widely considered overpowered, and even at the cost of a Domain, being able to pick the best wizard spell of each spell level seems a bit much. Even with the Armor thing.

It also breaks the general rule that the caster, not the spell, determines the Arcane-ness or Divine-ness of spells. (which is also why the divide itself is really just an unecceary complication).

Like I said, I'd sooner give the Wizard some cleric spells. Especially since theres several (Spell Resistance, Spell Immunity, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward) that they should already have anyway.

 

[Nifft]

Favored Mystic

Bear King: How is that balanced against the core Wizard? Methinks you need to do some re-design. And you need to trim your monsterous sig.

Tidus4444: I'm deeply in love with the Spirit Shaman's casting mechanic as a combination of flexibility and power. I think it can be applied here, but split between Int and Wis to better simulate the Mystic Theurge's dual nature (instead of between Wis and Cha).


Favored Mystic of Selene
Those chosen to serve the Pale Lady Herself are a breed apart from the clergy of other Gods. The Mistress of Magic has granted them unparalleled access to spells.

Benefits:
HD: d4
Saves: Good Will
BAB: Half
Skill Points/Level: 2 + Int
Class Skills: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Table:

[u]
Lev  BAB Fo/Re/Wi	Special Abilities [/u]
1    +0  +0/+0/+2	Spellcasting
2    +1  +0/+0/+3	--
3    +1  +1/+1/+3	--
4    +2  +1/+1/+4	Minor Gift
5    +2  +1/+1/+4	--
6    +3  +2/+2/+5	--
7    +3  +2/+2/+5	--
8    +4  +2/+2/+6	Lesser Gift
9    +4  +3/+3/+6	--
10   +5  +3/+3/+7	--
11   +5  +3/+3/+7	--
12   +6  +4/+4/+8	Crescent Moon Gift
13   +6  +4/+4/+8	--
14   +7  +4/+4/+9	--
15   +7  +5/+5/+9	--
16   +8  +5/+5/+10	Full Moon Gift
17   +8  +5/+5/+10	--
18   +9  +6/+6/+11	--
19   +9  +6/+6/+11	--
20   +10 +6/+6/+12	Greater Gift

[u]
Level	0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9[/u]
1	3/4 1/2 --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --
2	3/5 2/3 --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --
3	3/5 2/4 1/2 --  --  --  --  --  --  --
4	3/5 3/5 2/3 --  --  --  --  --  --  --
5	3/5 3/5 2/4 1/2 --  --  --  --  --  --
6	3/5 3/5 2/5 2/3 --  --  --  --  --  --
7	3/5 3/5 3/5 2/4 1/2 --  --  --  --  --
8	3/5 3/5 3/5 2/5 2/3 --  --  --  --  --
9	3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 2/4 1/2 --  --  --  --
10	3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 2/5 2/3 --  --  --  --
11	3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 2/4 1/2 --  --  --
12	3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 2/5 2/3 --  --  --
13	3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 2/4 1/2 --  --
14	3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 2/5 2/3 --  --
15	3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 2/4 1/2 --
16	3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 2/5 2/3 --
17	3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 2/4 1/2
18	3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 2/5 2/3
19	3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 2/4
20	3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5 3/5

Special Abilities:

• Spellcasting: Unlike a Wizard or Cleric, the Favored Mystic of Selene must excel in both intellect and intuition, for his spellcasting relies upon both Intelligence and Wisdom. His Int determines his bonus spells per day (and the highest spell-level that he can cast), while his Wis bonus determines the DC of his spells. A Clever mind makes you flexible, while Faith and Insight make you irresistable. A Favored Mystic of Selene casts spells spontaneously, like a Sorcerer; however, unlike a Sorcerer, he chooses his spells known each morning, during an hour-long meditation ceremony.
  A Favored Mystic of Selene may select his daily Spells Known from the Cleric or Sor/Wiz spell list. In the case of Cleric spells, he simply gains them by praying (like a Cleric). In the case of Sor/Wiz spells, he must maintain a spellbook (like a Wizard). Also like a Wizard, a Favored Mystic of Selene may freely add two free Sor/Wiz spells to his spellbook each level.
  Any spell cast by a Favored Mystic of Selene is subject to Arcane Spell Failure, even if the spell itself is Divine.
  Metamagic feats are applied to spells when prepared (like a Cleric or Wizard), not when cast (like a Sorcerer). For example, a Favored Mystic of Selene may
• Minor Gift : The Favored Mystic of Selene may choose one of the following:
  • Familiar : The character may summon a Familiar as though he were a Sorcerer three levels lower.
  • Lore (Ex): The character gains Bardic Lore, as though he were a Bard three levels lower.
  • Minor Mage Sight (Sp): The character may use Detect Magic at will as a spell-like ability.
  • Minor Knowledge : The character immediately gains Skill Focus (any Knowledge) as a bonus feat.
• Lesser Gift : The Favored Mystic of Selene may choose one of the following:
  • Bonus Metamagic : The character immediately gains any one Metamagic feat as a bonus feat.
  • Moon Sight (Ex): The character gains low-light vision.
  • Arcane Insight : From now on, whenever leveling up as a Favored Mystic of selene, the character freely adds three Sor/Wiz spells to his spellbook (instead of two).
  • Divine Protection (Ex): The character gains Cold Resistance 5.
  • Lesser Arcane Sight (Su): The character gains permanent See Invisibility , as the spell.
• Crescent Moon Gift : The Favored Mystic of Selene may choose one of the following:
  • Witch Sight (Su): The character gains permanent Arcane Sight , as the spell.
  • Foresight (Su): The character gains a permanent +2 Insight bonus to AC and initiative rolls.
  • Tenacious Magic (Su): The character's spellcaster level is treated as two levels higher for the purpose of dispel attempts.
• Waxing Moon Gift : The Favored Mystic of Selene may choose one of the following:
  • True Sight (Su): The character gains permanent True Seeing , as the spell.
  • True Lore (Sp): The character may cast Identify at will as a spell-like ability.
  • Communion (Sp): The character may cast Commune once per day as a spell-like ability with no XP cost.
• Full Moon Gift : The Favored Mystic of Selene may choose one of the following:
  • Divine Insight : The character gains a permanent +2 to his Intelligence and Wisdom. This bonus is treated as though gained through level advancement.
  • Flesh of the Goddess (Ex): The character gains DR 5/epic.
  • Mind of the Goddess (Su): The character becomes immune to all effects with the [Fear], [Charm] or [Compulsion] descriptor.

-- N