Neandertal's? 'dem dere's orcs!!!

[SWBaxter]

For instance, Griffons (and many other ancient mythical beasts) may have their origins in vastly misinterpreted dinosaurs.

Hmm. Or given that they're a lion/eagle cross, they may have their origins in vastly misinterpreted lions and eagles. Occam's razor and all that.

Has anyone ever thought about have neandertal *be* the orcs of their campaign? It's an interesting thought.

I've had Neanderthals as one of the races in my campaign, but not specifically as an orc replacement (at least not in the "disposable bad guys that it's OK to slaughter en masse" niche - generally I don't have that niche in my games). I've also used extinct critters as monsters - no need to go as far back as the dinosaurs, there's millions of years of cool stuff between then and now that's just close enough to known animals for players to visualize but weird enough to be interesting.

An interesting recent fictional take on Neanderthals is Robert J. Sawyer's "Neanderthal Parallax", a trilogy about contact with an alternate reality where our ancestors died out and Neanderthals rose to prominence.

 

[Mystery Man]

And earlier today there was a special on dragons during which it was postulated that those creatures of fantasy may have had their roots in our ancestral genetic fears of our three primoridal predators - snake, big cats and birds of prey (apparently eagles have attacked and killed children as old as 6 before - did not know that).

After watching this program my wife's uncle (by marriage thank every god, ever) thinks they are REAL. He was probably high when he watched it, but he's not very bright anyway.

After he mentioned the "real fire breathing dragons" to my father in law and me, he and I (father in law) just sort of looked at each other, I then had to leave the room.

 

[Turjan]

It's always been my strong impression that Tolkien's descriptions of orcs had a very strong correspondence with early Roman descriptions of the Huns, and that was the source of the descriptions.

I agree. That's also my impression when I read his descriptions.

And although technically Britain and Japan were at war in WW2, did they actually have much action together? I've always been under the impression that almost all of the British action was against the Germans.

I think they had some major dealings in Burma (Myanmar).

It is true that there have been folks who have succumbed to the temptation to paint Neanderthals as a kind of idealised, Utopian "noble savage" or hippy (heck, Björn Kurten himself did it of all people), but that same temptation has been present with every type of primitive human society, so I don't think it means anything particularly. As to why they went extinct, that's a speculative morass. Genocide by modern humans is the polar opposite of the other popular theory; that Neanderthals were merely genetically swamped when the two groups intermingled.

This purging of the genocide part from modern theories falls in the same category as the "noble savage" nonsense. Just because mankind discovered in the middle of the 20th century that genocide might be politically incorrect, doesn't meant that we have to apply this notion to the dealings of prehistoric humans. This is more wishful thinking than anything else.

As to (one of) Spooney's original questions, yes, I have quite often looked to combining the roles of Neanderthals and orcs in campaigns I developed.

Actually, I have not. The two roles don't overlap very much in my mind.

 

[mythusmage]

Hmm. Or given that they're a lion/eagle cross, they may have their origins in vastly misinterpreted lions and eagles. Occam's razor and all that.

The stories appear to have started in Central Asia, specifically in and around the Gobi Desert. The Gobi is also a rich source of protoceratops fossils. The protoceratops had a strong beak. It has been postulated that the gryphon story got its start with a misdiagnosis of protoceratops skulls.

Misinterpreted lions and eagles? Don't think so. When we're trying to describe a new animal to people we tend to describe it in terms our audience can understand. This can be seen in some of the first descriptions of the giraffe in medieval times, when the giraffe was rediscovered by Europe. (Giraffes were imported by Rome for the games.) The gryphon was seen as an animal incorporating elements of lion and eagle, and so was described as such.

(Gratuitous Plug)

The Dragon Earth gryphon is a member of the sphinx family, itself part of the the lung order (oriental dragons). More specifically the gryphon is a part of the hieracosphinx sub-family, and appears to be more closely related to the pegasi than to the true sphinxes.

 

[Desdichado]

It goes back to a book on Tolkien and his predecessors by Lin Carter. Whatever Lin used for his sources did not get included. No bibliography in other words.

I have that book, and have read it a couple of times. I still have no recollection of what you're talking about, though--other than several compound words that feature orc- in Beowulf Carter doesnt' make any mention of an old Germanic antiquity to the word orc that I remember. Keep in mind, that Carter was no expert; he was a S&S fan (and author) who wrote that book from the standpoint of an enthusiast and fan, nothing more. Tom Shippey completely discounted him and his book, and although I don't completely agree with that, after reading Shippey's own books, it is painfully obvious how much Carter didn't know.

Where Orcus is concerned, it's not unknown for gods from one source to get renamed. One thing to keep in mind is that '---us' is a Latin construction, not a Etruscan. In Greece village and town names with "oos" indicate locales dating back to pre-Mycean times.

Where words come from can get complicated, etymology is rarely as straight forward as popular works make it out to be.

You don't need to tell me that; I've been a fan and amateur linguist of sorts for many years. Just because Orcus has a Latin ending on it doesn't mean that the root of the word is Latin, though--just that the name has been latinized. After all, you've just got done telling me how complicated etymology is, and then you blow off a simple and common practice of borrowed words.

And let us not forget that Tolkien mixed things up a tad. Elves were Germans who spoke Finnish while orcs were Huns who spoke Sumerian.

Uhh.... yeah, right. :\

 

[Turjan]

Misinterpreted lions and eagles? Don't think so.

I agree with this statement, though not with the interpretation. There is no example of any vertebrate with six limbs. I think the gryphon is just a combination of two common symbols of power, the lion and the eagle. Lion plus eagle seems to equal more power . A good symbol for military leaders .

 

[mythusmage]

I agree with this statement, though not with the interpretation. There is no example of any vertebrate with six limbs. I think the gryphon is just a combination of two common symbols of power, the lion and the eagle. Lion plus eagle seems to equal more power . A good symbol for military leaders .

But medieval fabulists didn't see things that way. As far as they were concerned, if God wanted hexapedal vertebrates in some corner of the world, God could have hexapedal vetebrates in some corner of the world. When you know damn all about the bulk of the world it's easier to populate it with what later turns out to be impossible beasts.

For Joshua,

You have a point there re latinization. The Etruscans could well have known their god of the dead as some variant of orc. Pity Etruscan writing is notable for its scarcity.

 

[WayneLigon]

The Fantasy Trip used some variant of Neanderthal or such as their orcs if I remember correctly.

A lot of our myths could come from isolated survivors of older times, waaaaay back when there was a slight chance such survivals could occur. American Indians have a specific legend of encountering a creature that sounds a whole lot like a mastadon. Seeing dinosaur bones exposed when a cliff fell away would be another. The current Prince Valiant strip running now has him encountering 'Dragons', which are a lake full of plesiasaurs (sp); good inspiration for an adventure.

 

[Nuclear Platypus]

I think they had some major dealings in Burma (Myanmar).

Ever see the movie "Bridge over the River Kwai"? It was Hollywood-ized but there's some truth in it - Allied POWs (mostly Australian, British and Dutch I believe) forced to build a bridge by the Japanese.

 

[Turjan]

But medieval fabulists didn't see things that way. As far as they were concerned, if God wanted hexapedal vertebrates in some corner of the world, God could have hexapedal vetebrates in some corner of the world. When you know damn all about the bulk of the world it's easier to populate it with what later turns out to be impossible beasts.

I give you the same answer as before: I agree with your statement but not with your interpretation. Although hexapedal vertebrates are acceptable within the borders of medieval knowledge, this doesn't mean that the mongolian fossile theory is correct. The gryphon is much less a mythological monster than a heraldic symbol. Emblems with lions and eagles were very common, and they were simple symbols of power. A gryphon is just a combination of the two.