Neandertal's? 'dem dere's orcs!!!

[Zander]

Tolkien's concept of orcs goes back much farther than that, though, and he's specifically and emphatically rejected any such notions of real world "current" events coloring the Lord of the Rings in any way.

While that's true, he also explicitly accepted that real world cultures (e.g. Finnish, Welsh, English and Jewish) influenced his concepts of the people of Middle Earth. It is reasonable to suppose that there were subconscious influences as well, ones he would not have been aware of.

And although technically Britain and Japan were at war in WW2, did they actually have much action together? I've always been under the impression that almost all of the British action was against the Germans.

As Turjan and Nuclear Platypus have pointed out, there was ferocious conflict between Britain (with its allies) and Japan in Burma, Singapore and elsewhere in SE Asia. Indeed, during and immediately after WWII in Britain, the Japanese were hated just as much if not more than the Germans due to reports of their mistreatment of British POWs.

 

[Zander]

A lot of random comments:

While I'm sure various ancient cultures that have encountered dinosaur bones came up with some pretty interesting explainations for them, isn't it more likely that creatures such as the griffon or pegasus were simply "tall tales" - made up for a more interesting story (though that doesn't mean the storytellers didn't believe in their creations.) A protoceretops skull, to me, would seem more likely to spawn tales of giant birds - like the roc - than part bird/part lion images.

There's an interesting discussion at this site http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/01/29/164339.php about how fossils may have influenced the development of mythic creatures in antiquity.

 

[Ace]

The Fantasy Trip used some variant of Neanderthal or such as their orcs if I remember correctly.
.

H. Saipiens Piltdowni to be precise. Its my favorite TFT joke

 

[tarchon]

You don't need to tell me that; I've been a fan and amateur linguist of sorts for many years. Just because Orcus has a Latin ending on it doesn't mean that the root of the word is Latin, though--just that the name has been latinized. After all, you've just got done telling me how complicated etymology is, and then you blow off a simple and common practice of borrowed words.

An Etruscan origin would require shifting the 'o' too - Etruscan famously lacked an o sound (possibly related to the peculiarly Latin shift of the 2nd declension stem from o to u).
Lewis and Short consider it to be native. Etymologies of gods' names are always difficult because their cults often got passed around the Mediterranean from country to country, though Orcus had the sort of visceral aura in the Republic that you would expect from a particularly long-established folk deity.

 

[Mean Eyed Cat]

Originally Posted by Particle_Man
There is a sound that all mammals instinctively fear.

It is the sound of a predator's breathing (it had a funny shaped nasal cavity) as it hunted the shrew-like ancestor of all mammals.

Someone found the fossil of the predator (it is quite extinct) and made a tube from a cast of its nasal cavity and blew through it one radio.

People called in to say that hair was standing up on the backs of their necks, that their cats had fled the room.

I want to second the request to know more about this. Somewhere there must be a tape of the sound of the Ur-Predator... I want to hear it!

Yeah, my Google-fu must be weak. I too would be very interested to read more about this.

 

[Desdichado]

While that's true, he also explicitly accepted that real world cultures (e.g. Finnish, Welsh, English and Jewish) influenced his concepts of the people of Middle Earth. It is reasonable to suppose that there were subconscious influences as well, ones he would not have been aware of.

True, but since it's no more than complete speculation, I don't know that it's particularly informative. It could well be interesting, though.

I stand by my orcs = Huns more or less interpretation, myself. It's easier than one that relies on subconscious influences and, more importantly, it doesn't directly contradict what Tolkien himself said, as the orcs = Japanese interpretation does.

 

[Desdichado]

An Etruscan origin would require shifting the 'o' too - Etruscan famously lacked an o sound (possibly related to the peculiarly Latin shift of the 2nd declension stem from o to u).
Lewis and Short consider it to be native. Etymologies of gods' names are always difficult because their cults often got passed around the Mediterranean from country to country, though Orcus had the sort of visceral aura in the Republic that you would expect from a particularly long-established folk deity.

I wonder if I'm getting sucked into that whole Tomb of Tarquinis problem, and if indeed that's where I'm remembering my Orcus/Etruscan connection. Since that whole thing is now considered to be a mistake, if that's so, than Orcus as an Etruscan deity originally wouldn't be very likely.

Still, although I can't find anything specifically on it now that I'm looking, I am still seeing a lot of assumed connections between Orcus and the Etruscans everywhere I look. Huh. That's very puzzling.

 

[tarchon]

Still, although I can't find anything specifically on it now that I'm looking, I am still seeing a lot of assumed connections between Orcus and the Etruscans everywhere I look. Huh. That's very puzzling.

Etruscans are sexy - if you want a sexy theory about something in Roman culture, you connect it to the Etruscans. If it was Etruscan, I would assume the original would have been "ark" or "arks" (cf. Parsna -> Porsenna) but to me the morphology just doesn't have that Etruscan ring to it. If it is borrowed, I'd put my money on the Gauls, probably contemporary with Brennus.

 

[demonpunk]

orcs as neandertals

The first 3e game I ran was a prehistoric game, and I figured orcs were primitive humans and elves were advanced humans. It didn't really come up in game, but that was my thinking.

True, neandertals were probably no more aggressive than humans, but that's not saying a lot. And two groups with obvious physical differences often go to war against each other.

Most evidence shows that Neandertals and early modern humans didn't live in the same areas, but that was when there was a *lot* more open space and people lived in nomadic bands (which usually max out at about 30 people). In a medieval setting where people are competing for resources, conflict would almost certainly break out.

Really, it comes down to mood. If you want to play orcs as a seperate vein of humans, and give them a neandertal-type culture, sounds cool. Portraying them as the Tolkien-esque "servants of the Evil One" wouldn't mix too well with that.

Oh, and check out Michael Chrichton's Eaters of the Dead (or the movie, the 13th Warrior) for Vikings fighting Neandertals, or Robert E. Howard's Bran Mak Morn stories for Pictish Neandertals.

 

[demiurge1138]

While I'm sure various ancient cultures that have encountered dinosaur bones came up with some pretty interesting explainations for them, isn't it more likely that creatures such as the griffon or pegasus were simply "tall tales" - made up for a more interesting story (though that doesn't mean the storytellers didn't believe in their creations.) A protoceretops skull, to me, would seem more likely to spawn tales of giant birds - like the roc - than part bird/part lion images.

Yes, but finding a Protoceratops skull (bird-like) attached to a Protoceratops body (closer to mammalian, with paw-like feet) would be enough to make a bird/lion connection. I remember reading that the wings of the griffon were interpretations of the huge shoulder bones of a Protoceratops - it was assumed that the wings were attached to these but had been lost, IIRC.

Demiurge out.