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Near TPK in Shackled City... Possible Spoilers.

starkad

First Post
So, I am running my group through Shackled City. They're doing very well, actually. Until they decided to not heed my warning that the dungeon was extremely tough, and to take their time and plan accordingly.

The situation:
Cleric is out of spells completely. He's an Aasimar Clr1.
Sorcerer has 3 0 level spells left. He's a Chaos Gnome Sor1.
Paladin is at about 75% hp, and has used lay on hands. He's a half-orc pal2.
Bard is being NPC'd for the session, and the person has him just singing, because he's lazy.
Rogue is at about 80% hit points. He's a Whisper Gnome Rog2.

Now, they have a wand of cure light wounds, with 24 charges left. So they decide to heal a little (they were close to full hit points), before trying to tackle the 'green meanie' they were told about from Yuathyb.

They bust into the room, and spread out - the half-orc is enlarged, so he takes the lead with his longsword and shield. The rogue flanks him to the right, looking up and trying to peer around the balcony. The sorcerer is in the middle, playing it safe. Cleric is next to the sorcerer, since the little bastard has a penchant for getting in to trouble. The bard (being played as an NPC this week) is dully following, and doing nothing but singing, because the person playing him was lazy.

They inch forward, and eventually the half-orc is standing between the two balconies. He sees no danger. The rogue, though, critically succeeds at his spot check, and sees the flying 'green meanie', complete with oozing brain, and multiple tentacles. It starts to swoop down, and the rogue plinks at it.

Now, I made sure to note the creature was being defensive, and hovered 15 feet above the gnome. The gnome foolishly decides to barely move, takes no cover, and fires again. The half-orc potshots the creature, doing a good amount of damage, while the cleric foolishly is readying actions to attack the creature if it gets in range (i noted the length of the tentacles.. the ready actions were completely wasted imo), and the sorcerer flings his final spells at the thing, missing all but one, and scoring a single point of damage.

Here's where it gets ugly. Because the rogue decided not to move, he gets grabbed, paralyzed, and flown up to the ceiling for a snack. The half-orc had decided to simply be a melee fighter, and had no range weapon. The group frantically tries to plink the thing, but to no avail; the bard fires into the grapple (finally the person decides it might be a good idea to actually USE the bard) - but the bolt hits and kills the unconscious rogue. The creature drops the lifeless carcass of the whisper gnome rogue to the edge of the balcony, which bounces off the rail and ends unceremoniously dumped on the floor in an expanding pool of blood.

In shock, the group looks at me like I am crazy... I tend to be fairly lenient, but this time I promised myself to play it the way it was meant to be played.

Next, the cleric and sorcerer, up on the balcony, continue to try and plink it. The thing swoops down, nails the sorcerer a couple of times; who then smartly dives over the railing and taking the falling damage rather than dying. The cleric wasn't so bright. He got snagged, swept to the ceiling, and was made the second snack of the night. His body fell down, bounded down the stairs, and landed at the bottom in a very awkward position.

This entire time, the half-orc paladin decides to run around trying to get in range... The thing isn't stupid, so it avoids the lumbering brute until it gets smaller. When the enlarge finally wears off, the thing swoops down, paralyzes him, and starts to eat him.

It was here I decided to avert a TPK, given all the work I did to get the game going smoothly, and fudged a few damage rolls. I had made the encounter lethal, and challenging, and the creature had 3 hit points left, but luck was screwing the PCs bigtime with repeated misses. The bard actually managed to hit the half-orc, but didn't do enough damage to kill him. Finally the sorcerer hits, does 6 damage, and kills the thing... Which falls 40ft knocking the half-orc out cold.

Now... I don't consider myself a harsh GM. I gave ample warning, tons of pre-info on character builds that would be successful etc. They chose to ignore it, and charged headlong... As amusing as I find the entire situation, it nearly ruined my months of prep-work, and tens of hours of writing things out, and fleshing everything right.

My group, on the other hand, thinks I was excessively cruel. I didn't taunt them, I didn't gloat, I didn't brag. I probably went a weentsy bit overboard with the gruesome fall descriptions of the dead PCs... But I thought it was semi artistic, and rather true of what would happen.

So here's my question... Would you have treated your party with kid gloves? Or would you have played it straight up and had a TPK?

Mike/Starkad
 

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Atavar

First Post
What should you have done? It depends on your group's style. I am currently DMing the Shackled City myself. My group prefers consistency (no fudging), which often plays out as potential TPK's (we even had one, in an earlier campaign). In my opinion, it sounds like you did nothing wrong (with one exception--see below)--you gave them plenty of warning of the campaign's toughness. Hopefully they believe you now. Also, knowing where that creature is in the campaign, your group was still so close to the beginning of the campaign that it woudln't have been a big deal to have a TPK and roll up new characters.

So, what mistake did you make? The creature in question is medium size, is it not? Well, it would have a field day grappling with the small members of the party (i.e. gnomes) but NOT with anyone else (i.e. aasimar cleric). Improved grapple by default only works on creatures smaller than the attacker, which is the case here. In my group's case, everyone is medium, so the encounter, while dangerous, wasn't nearly as dangerous as it would've been with small party members.

Later,

Atavar

------

"That which is to give light must endure burning." - Frankl
 

Grog

First Post
starkad said:
while the cleric foolishly is readying actions to attack the creature if it gets in range (i noted the length of the tentacles.. the ready actions were completely wasted imo)

The RAW specifically states that you can ready an action to attack a creature with reach when it attacks you. It has to reach into your square to attack, so you can attack the part of its body that it reaches with. I don't know if this actually came into play in the fight, but if the grell had tried to attack the cleric, he should have gotten to attack it first.

starkad said:
Next, the cleric and sorcerer, up on the balcony, continue to try and plink it. The thing swoops down, nails the sorcerer a couple of times; who then smartly dives over the railing and taking the falling damage rather than dying.

How does it nail the sorceror "a couple of times?" If the grell has to swoop down, it only gets one attack.

starkad said:
This entire time, the half-orc paladin decides to run around trying to get in range... The thing isn't stupid, so it avoids the lumbering brute until it gets smaller. When the enlarge finally wears off, the thing swoops down, paralyzes him, and starts to eat him.

Just because a foe is intelligent doesn't mean it should automatically know the half-orc was only big because of a (temporary) spell. If the half-orc was already enlarged when the fight began, IMO there's a good chance that the grell wouldn't have known he was under the effect of an enlarge person spell. Now, maybe the grell has seen this sort of thing before, but then again, maybe it hasn't. Having it fly around until the spell wore off seems like metagaming to me.

Besides those things, however, it just looks like the party paid a price for running into a dangerous encounter without resting first. Though I feel that grells are very much under-CRed. Ten attacks per round with possible paralysis on every attack, flight, and 10-foot reach - that's ridiculous for a CR 3 monster IMO.
 

Grog

First Post
Oh, and there are a couple of suboptimal characters in your party, IMO. Playing a spellcaster from a race with a level adjustment is usually a pretty bad idea. Especially a sorceror - they're already a level behind wizards and clerics in spell progression, a +LA race just makes it worse.
 
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Vorput

First Post
starkad said:
So here's my question... Would you have treated your party with kid gloves? Or would you have played it straight up and had a TPK?

Depends on the players and the campaign- but you told them ahead of time this was going to be tough, and they decide to go in without being fully prepared (having spells and abilities available). Sounds to me like they got what they asked for- and you played it very well. The fact that the players stared at you in shock when a PC dies proved they didn't honestly consider the death of the characters as a real possibility...

You cut it short of a total TPK- which was also a good move, IMO.

Vorp
 

starkad

First Post
Atavar,

Thanks, I didn't know the medium grapple thing. It didn't come in to play last night, so that's good (whew, I don't want to screw my players.. I am all about having fun). The cleric in question was paralyzed on the first hit, and killed when I hit him 3 more times in the same round. He had 10 hit points to begin with (8 base, +2 for con), and took over 20 in my volley (4+1, 3+1, 7+2 [crit], 3+1). I will remember the medium grapple with improved grapple in the future - thanks again! :)

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Grog,

The reach/ready action was a non issue for the cleric - it never got close enough until the very end. The cleric didn't have a ready action at that point either; he had his sling out.

The reach issue for the half-orc affected only one attack - I will make amends for that. He hadn't stated he was aiming for the tentacles, and I think I was locked on to sticking with the rules at that point - overzealous, and a mistake.

As for metagming with the reach... I condensed the description a bit. The grell moved carefully to avoid getting in range of the half-orc. It had no idea he was ENlarged, just large. So when it faded, the grell was across the room, and had a field day with a smaller target. I mainly kept it away from the half-orc, because it knew it wouldn't be able to grapple him easily, if at all.

The swooping on the sorcerer... Again, condensed. It moved down to 10 feet above (double move, no attacks), then attacked the next round (missing all but one, now that I am checking my notes, and the gnome got a 17 on the fort save, so he was not paralyzed), at which point the gnome said 'F that!' and dove over the balcony edge.

-----------------------
Vorp,

Avoiding the TPK was advantageous to me... I am having a blast running this module, it is really put together well. So call me selfish in part, but I saw the unhappy looks, figured I had made my point, and went with it.


Addendum: When they left, Ghelve was upstairs, saw two dead, and immediately had a bout of guilt. He worked with the party to accumulate enough gold/gems to afford two raise deads with Jenya (the cleric was of st cuthbert, so he got a decent price break). I made sure to strip party cash down enough to make it tight, but not too tight. The characters in question get to come back... Perhaps humbled, a little broke, and losing some exp (different thread there)... But they are back, and Ghelve is a bit poorer in the long run, but has regained some trust in town.
 

Henrix

Explorer
This is a dangerous encounter, and I've heard of several near-TPKs and even TPKs with this encounter. My players had a rough time as well. A good time, but difficult.


However, it is not as dangerous as many make it to be.
First off, many DMs miss the bit about it only grappling smaller opponents, as has been pointed out here.

But almost all these stories include parts like this:
The cleric wasn't so bright. He got snagged, swept to the ceiling, and was made the second snack of the night. His body fell down, bounded down the stairs, and landed at the bottom in a very awkward position.
Now, your average grell has a strength of 12. That means that light load is 43 lbs, and it cannot carry anything heavier than 130 lbs.

Normally flyers cannot fly with more than light load (MM p.312, under Movement Modes, Fly), but the grell might be an exception, as the description says that it flies like the Fly spell (which merely reduces the movement rate while encumbered).

So, it cannot fly carrying more than 43 or 130 lbs, depending on how you read it. Either way it cannot carry an adult human male in armour. (An elf, possibly, but not a dwarf or aasimar, unless extremely small and naked.)
 

Mechnomancer

First Post
I think i 've posted this else where, but shackled city is a meat grinder. The encounters are only going to get worse. As for avoiding a TPK, i only wish i had, but it would have been too obvious. I've had 24 PC deaths including the TPK. The story line is so shot full of holes, that it has been really hard to get the pcs on the right track without a lot of rail roading.
 

Garet Jax

Explorer
Have you thought about giving your PCs some action points?

[possible threadcap question] Are there any significant changes in Shackled City hardcover vs Shackled City in Dungeon?
 

Lazybones

Adventurer
Garet Jax said:
Have you thought about giving your PCs some action points?

[possible threadcap question] Are there any significant changes in Shackled City hardcover vs Shackled City in Dungeon?

There is an extra adventure added in the hardcover, I believe between "Life's Bazaar" and "Flood Season".

Having worked extensively with TSC, I'd recommend liberal use of the NPCs included in the series, including Fellian/Fazio, the druid, the Stormblades, Ruphos, and anybody else you can get your hands on. The campaign is nicely designed to allow recurring NPC characters to drop in; you can easily use 1-2 per adventure to add a little extra "umph" to the group. If you prefer not to use NPCs, then a few extra wilderness encounters can help ensure that the players are high enough in level to deal with the challenges in the later adventures. As others have noted, it only gets worse from here; I disagree, however, that TSC is not workable as a result.
 

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