Need a CR for Exploding Undead Template

[Grishnak]

Need a CR for this Exploding Undead Template
Well the basics of the template are as follows.

Upon the undeads death it explodes into shards of bone which has a blast radius of 20' the bones cause 1d6 damage/per hd of undead Reflex for half damage.
As a secondary effect the characters caught in the blast must make a Fortitude save DC 20 or have the bone shards work their way in. 2nd Fort Save DC 25 or the character dies and becomes the undead who's bones entered the body 1d4 rounds later.
(Eg Undead creature that explodes - skeleton, characters raises as a skeleton)

I was thinking along the lines of about a +2 or +3 CR but any guides will be helpful. I used Van Richtens Guide to the Walking Dead and in there the create spawn cr adjustment is +1/2 so the rest of the cr would be based on the explosive damage.

Example Creature

Medium Sized Skeleton
1d12 (6hp) - Blast damage 1d6
Init +5 (+1 dex, +4 Improved Init)
Speed 30ft
Ac 13 (+1 dex, +2 natural)
Attacks 2 claws +0 melee
Damage Claw 1d4
Face/Reach 5ft. by 5ft./5ft.
Special Qualities Undead, immunities, Exploding Dead
Saves Fort +0, Ref +1, Will +2
Abilities Str 10 Dex 12 Con - Int - Wis 10 Cha 11
Feats Improved Init

CR 2 1/3 or 3 1/3???

I posted this on Homebrews but don't get much viewing over there

 

[Voadam]

Your fortitude save or die and turn into undead aspect of the template is really nasty. 3rd level characters are not likely to make that save, it could easily be a tpk. This is nastier than turning into spawn if killed through damage or drains. I'd say at least +2 or +3 for lower HD monsters maybe less for higher level encounters where the save is more easily survived.

 

[Liolel]

I agree that bone shards is extremely nasty. A low level character has no chance of making that save. And if you send a swam of these even a high level group would die. My recomendations take out the spawn abilitys and put it at +1 cr for 1-4 hd +2 for 4+ hd. But I'm not experinced in templates.

 

[Lord Vangarel]

Hi Grishnak

You liked my exploding undead guy in the last adventure then.

 

[Grishnak]

To Lord Vangarel
Hehe yeah it got me thinking about the creature and thought it would be a cool ability.

To Voadam & Liolel
That's why I posted it on here so players and dm's alike can give some input/ideas the saves can always be altered for example the full save throw as stated if standing within 5 ft and - 2 per 5ft afterwards.

Thx for the replies all
Grish

 

[Voadam]

If you keep the save or spawn ability you might want to tie the DC to the creature's hit dice so that it scales with tougher creatures.

An exploding 1 HD skeleton then is not as much of a threat as an exploding 10 HD skeletal warrior.

 

[themaxx]

I think the Fort saves are way too tough, and probably affect too many.

What about making the Fort saves DC 15 and 18, and only affecting the adjacent squares of the undead, upon death. That seems much more reasonable, unless you are making very high CR undead in the first place.

 

[Grishnak]

Yeah upon reflection that at a cr of 3 the characters would only save on a natural 20 if they failed the 1st save does show it to be too high and would possibly be better for a hd scale as said by Voadam. At the time I was only really thinking of higher levels but then went and used a low level undead as the example which showed the flaw in my design, thx for the replies and ideas.
This isn't just for my use though, it's for any enworlders that want to use it!!

Cheers Grish

 

[ValarX]

Turning Power Into Fear

Here's how I would handle this type of template...

First, the explosive damage deals 1d4 times the HD of the undead who took the template (Reflex Save 15 for half) in a 10ft. radius from that particular undead. I'm using 1d4 because I imagine these shards to be something like daggers, and given that the people standing around the creature have already taken damage in killing it, this is a little 'nicer'.

Secondly, anyone damaged in such a manner must make a Fortitude Save (DC 20) or have the splinters infect them taking 1d4 Con damage. Note, this adjusts an already weakened fighter, and those who haven't died from the explosive damage, may very well fall from the undead shards.

Shards may be removed from a character with a successful Heal check DC 17. Retries are allowed, but the character being operated on suffers 1d4 damage on each unsuccesful attempt (since the cleric will be cutting into them to get it out).

Each night, the character who has not removed any shards must make a succesful Fort Save (DC 20) or suffer an additional 1d4 Con damage. This Con damage may not be healed until the shards are removed from the body.

Any character who dies (either from Con loss or hit point loss) immediately raises as an undead with the exploding undead template.

 

[ValarX]

Oh, and as for the CR I'd make it a +2 increment, one for the explosive damage finish and one for the spawn undead. Can you imagine a mix of exploding skeletons and other living creatures? This would be a very nasty combination.

DM: Ok, you killed the skeleton.
Players: Yes!
DM: It explodes I need you to all make saves.
Players: What?
(Players make saves, surviving)
DM: Alright, the explosive damage killed the three orcs behind it.
Players: Alright!
DM: They are now raising as undead.
Players: What!?