Need a hand with designing a spider character

[Daniel Runge]

Hello everyone

I'm a player in a game, where the DM has built his own world that we explore, with 3.5/pathfinder rules. Therefore, the races and such are a bit different than what most are used to, but balanced after the same core principles as an ordinary pathfinder game - And I need a hand with building my character based on a concept I thought up when reading his races.

Concept:
My character is a half-blood of a human male and a Sen'garak female.
Sen'garak - The Drow of my DM's world, based on spiders here are their statistics (16 RP):
Humanoid
Medium Sized
Land speed 40 ft.
Climb speed 20 ft.
+2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
Languages: Sylvari. Bonus: common, undercommon, terran, Aklo (Pay this no major heed)
Born to the Land - +2 dodge bonus to AC underground
Resistant - +2 saves against mind affecting and poison.
Scavenger - +2 racial bonus on Appraise and Perception checks to find hidden objects (Including secret doors and traps), determine whether food is spoiled, or identify a potion by taste
Poison Use
Weapon familiarity - Net / Snag Net and Thorn Bracer
See in Darkness
Spider Empathy - +2 Handle Animal against spiders, and may treat spiders as animals with intelligence score of 1 for the purposes of this ability.

Quite a mouthful.
Anyway, so I decided to build one of these suckers, and because he hadnt designed the half-breds from interbreeding of these races, I was to simply pick which one I resembled the most, and I chose Sen'garak
Designing around the race and the fact that we needed something sneaky, I decided it should be a male rogue. In my mind, he had been taken by an organization, and used his heritage to his advantage - as a style, or an iconic way of doing things, so I came up with a mildly cliché back-ground story and built on that.

Summary:
Mother is a Sen'garak raider, but captured on one of the raids she is imprisoned and sold into slavery. Sold off to a wealthy noble of a dark country, she becomes his concubine (question his tastes?) and gives birth to his 14th son - my character. As the 14th son, he is not expected to carry on any legacies, and as such sold to an organization of intel and assassination, a sort of mercenary guild, that is in the pocket of the father. Here, he is taught the art of assassinry and all it entails. When Pinqh(My character) reaches the age of 16, he is sent on his first self-chosen assignemt (if anyone know fairy tail, it is chosen sort of like how they chose missions) and takes an assignement to kill his eldest brother: Sarani. After succeding, he comes after his father, and is discoved standing over the body of his father, by his mother. His mother, as a Sen'garak, revered strength, and as such had come to love pinqhs father in his might, and went into a frenzy, even as she recognized her son. Pinqh, forced to slay his own mother in her otherwise unstoppable fury, went on a killing spree in grief and slew all his siblings, not only the sons. Now, the sole heir of the family, he bought himself free of the organizatin with most of his fathers wealth, and went on a journey, seeking a way to escape the pain and grief of losing his family.

This is just an overview, as the intricasies of the world is hardly relevant, and I want to keep it relatively short

So keeping in line with his style of assassination, he would work like a spider: Poisons, traps, and climbing together with the ordinary assassination traits: stealth, surprise and information gathering.
After the episode though, he gave up on assassination and chose to seek enlightenment, but after a few incidents he realized that was hardly possible in a world such as this, and instead sought a way to beat his opponents without killing them.
This leads him, in my mind, down the path of a monk, and so he is a rogue/monk multiclass.

My question is, how would building it make sense? We start at level 3 and so I assumed 2 levels in rogue and 1 in monk of the archetypes Urban Ninja (-guile pool) and Flowing Monk
I wish to keep in line with all of the above, meaning that the first 2 levels in rogue would be focused on that, and then the following monk levels would be focused on combat maneuvers and the like. To this end I have reached only so far:
lvl 1 Combat Reflexes Rogue 1
lvl 2 Finesse rogue talent Rogue 2
lvl 3 Improved unarmed strike, Improved trip Monk 1

This is where I hit a dent though, I havn't picked a 3rd lvl feat, and I plan to go with a homebrew Prestive Class with a placeholder name of Mixed Martial Artist that follows the theme of using non-lethal force(from level 5).

Mixed Martial Artist:

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special
1st	+0	+0	+1	+0	Martial artist, trick fighting
2nd	+1	+1	+1	+1	Bonus Feat
3rd	+2	+1	+2	+1	Elbow strikes, maneuver talent
4th	+3	+1	+2	+1	Bonus feat, parkour
5th	+3	+2	+3	+2	Maneuver talent

[h=2]Class Features[/h]Weapon and armor proficiency: Mixed Martial Artists are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield.
Martial Artist
The class levels of a Mixed Martial Artist stack with monk levels for determining the effect of his AC bonus, fast movement, flurry of blows, and unarmed strike class features.
In addition, thefollowing class features can only be used when wearing light or no armor: Elbow Strikes, Maneuver Talents, and Parkour
Trick Fighting
A Mixed Martial Artist substitutes his character level for his Base Attack Bonus when performing the following special attacks: charge; combat maneuvers, daredevil maneuvers (see below), and off-hand tactics.
Bonus Feats
At 2nd and 4th level a Mixed Martial Artist may select a bonus feat. These feats must be taken from the bonus feats of his monk class or the following list: Improved Bull Rush; Improved Disarm; Improved Grapple; Improved Overrun; Improved Trip. The Mixed Martial Artist does not need to meet prerequisites for a bonus feat.
These bonus feats are in addition to the feats a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A daredevil is not limited to the above list when choosing these feats. A daredevil may choose any feat he meets the prerequisite for instead if he already has all these feats.
Elbow Strikes
A Mixed Martial Artist knows how to use every part of his body as a weapon. Beginning at 3rd level, a Mixed Martial Artist deals his unarmed strike damage when he successfully performs a combat maneuver.
Maneuver talent
Over time, Mixed Martial Artists learn and develop variations of the attacks they specialize in. At 3rd and 5th level, a Mixed Martial Artist learns one of the following maneuvers (if he meets the prerequisites).
Barreling Charge: After successfully bull rushing a target at least 15 feet, a Mixed Martial Artist who learns this maneuver can make a single attack as a swift action. He gains a +2 bonus on this attack. Prerequisite: Improved Bull Rush.
Bowl Over: After successfully bull rushing a target at least 5 feet, a Mixed Martial Artist who learns this maneuver can attempt to trip that target as a swift action. Prerequisites: Improved Bull Rush and Improved Trip.
Disarming Takedown: While grappling unarmed, a Mixed Martial Artist who learns this maneuver can make a disarm check as an immediate action against anyone he is grappling. Prerequisites: Improved Disarm and Improved Grapple
Hiptoss: When grappling unarmed, a Mixed Martial Artist who learns this maneuver may make a trip attack against anyone he is grappling as swift action. He can choose to end the grapple immediately with his opponent prone at his feet, if he chooses not to, the Mixed Martial Artist must succeed on another grapple attempt to keep the grapple. if he fails his check he is staggered and cannot make Attacks of Opportunity until the start of his next turn. Prerequisites: Improved Trip and Improved Grapple.
Swiping Leg Sweep: After successfully disarming an opponent, a Mixed Martial Artist who learns this maneuver can attempt to trip that opponent as a swift action. Prerequisite: Improved Disarm and Improved Trip.
Waffling Charge: After successfully hitting a melee attack at the end of a charge, a Mixed Martial Artist who learns this maneuver can choose to overrun that target. Prerequisite: Improved Overrun.
Weapon Shove: After successfully bull rushing a target at least 5 feet, a Mixed Martial Artist who learns this maneuver can attempt to disarm that target as a swift action. Prerequisite: Improved Bull Rush and Improved Disarm.
In addition, this class feature opens up combat feats by the same names and with the same benefits and Prerequisites.
Parkour
The whole world seems a lot flatter to someone who can jump twice his height and roll off great falls. Beginning at 4th level, a Mixed Martial Artist ignores the effects of non-magically manipulated difficult terrain and can make Acrobatics checks at full speed, and Accelerated Climb checks without penalty.

My DM sugested going the Spring attack route, perhaps with whirlwind attack to substitute attacks with trip attempts when surrounded or the like, but I would like some additional input.

Thanks in advance
Pinqh

P.S.
My DM allows most 3.5 material as long as he is allowed to modify things to keep it either relevant or proper powerlevel wise. We are all quite concerned with keeping people in the group either their own distinct specialized niches, or inside the same power-frame

 

[gamerprinter]

Its one thing to take a home-brew race build and apply standard classes to see how to build it in a balanced way, or take a home-brew class and apply that to a standard race to achieve a balanced build. Instead, you've introduced a custom home-brewed race, and a custom class - and you're looking for help. I don't know that either (class or race) is very well balanced, so I have no means of measuring the worth of this build since everything is home-brew (its a poor place to start for an outsider to your game to look at this build.)

It almost seems like you're doing a custom class design to take over advantage of the racial features you built, which would seem to be make an overly specialized class, and possibly overpowered because of that.

There's no way for me to judge the balance without playtesting both, and that's a lot of work for someone not using your homebrew rules. Perhaps someone can give a better judgment for you. For me, this is so home-brew, there is no effective way for me to judge nor help you. Its almost too much of an outlier situation to even make sense. If it were one or the other (custom plus existing rules) I could help. Good luck, but since neither is the case, I can't help you.

 

[Daniel Runge]

Hi Gamerprinter

I realize this is a lot of homebrew, but I'm not asking for a way to optimize, possibly break my character, I'm merely asking for help on making it make sense. Now ofc with all this homebrew, there is a relatively high risk of it turning overpowered, but that's something we in the play group would fix, to avoid that particular situation.

I never intend to min-max or super optimize my character, merely make it work in tandem between the flavor -and the mechanical aspects

Thanks for taking your time to read it though, I appreciate it, it was quite a bit of text afterall.
Pinqh

*Edit* We are using standard Pathfinder rules btw, not some homebrew rule setting, just homebrew fantasy

 

[gamerprinter]

I've helped develop custom races and published them. I've helped develop custom alternate classes and archetypes and published them. So I have some familiarity with custom race/class design, and doing it in such a way to be published and have somewhat of a fanbase for that setting. So I am very familiar and comfortable with homebrew. Its probably true that any new races/classes/archetypes I've developed were derived from some existing race, class or archetype, and were developed as intended custom additions to existing races or classes - they were never developed as a custom class for a custom race. Doing each in isolation is doable, then bringing the two together is more possible. But starting with a custom race and apply a custom class, is just too custom to arrive at a reasonable measurement of either option.

Perhaps you ought to take your basic spider race and try to see how balanced it is using existing classes and compare it to non-custom races using those same classes. Next develop your custom martial arts class using standard races, and compare your build and standard race to other standard races using different existing classes for comparison. Then tweak both your race and your class builds to be more reasonable. Once that is done you can start looking at combining the two custom creations and workout some level of balance overall in your game. But as a starting point do not even try to build a custom class for a custom race, there is nothing reasonable or effectively measureable doing it that way - so don't (and not even worth looking at).

Oh, and welcome to ENWorld!

 

[Daniel Runge]

Thank you kindly for the warm welcome.

What you say is true, it might seem like it's sligthly too peppered. But for arguments sake, let's say I was using one of the official races, afterall, the only thing I really want from the Sen'garak race is the climb speed, poison use, and Snag Net proficiency, and it is what I designed my character concept around - Climbing, posion, and nets (webs). I added Acrobatics because I like jumping spiders.

Take the Vanara. They get the climb speed, bonuses to Dex and Wis, as well as bonuses to 2 of my most used skills - Acrobatics and Stealth.
These are pretty much the bonuses my character would want if I went with something a bit more min-maxy. I lose out on all the small details from the Sen'garak, the things that made me want to play one in the first place, and design a concept around it, but it makes it easier to pull off a jumping spider that's simply not poisonous.

Race-wise I cannot see any issues. However, I can see why there could be problems with the prestige class.

So I'll set up a different scenario, where I will not move towards the martial artist (lets assume it's not avaible for my character for whatever reason).
I now have a Vanara / Sen'garak progressing as a multiclassed Rogue/monk. My initial question still stands: How could I turn him into a character fitting the concept? Jumping, climbing, combat maneuvering, trap and poison using (if sen'garak) spider like character? what feats would you recommend, what could turn up, what progression through feats, or even which feat chains would you recommend.

I'm still looking myself, and came across the trait: Accelerated Drinker. An assassin, I would imagine, would embrace the idea of a contingency potion to help escapes, in the case of something going wrong, even more so after an episode like the one my character had with his mother. Would this lead to perhaps a Drunken Master archetyped Monk instead? So on and so forth. All I really need is ideas to work on from.

This should be simpler to work with, if you are still interested in helping out
Pinqh

 

[gamerprinter]

There is a possibility of creating a racial paragon class, which is a 3PP concept by Rite Publishing. Unfortunately there is no template for creating racial paragon classes.

First of all, what is a racial paragon class:

In most campaigns, the ideas of class and race are separate concepts. But, with racial paragon classes, the line between the two becomes blurred.


Racial paragons are, as the name suggests, nearly ideal examples of the strengths and abilities of the character's race. Unlike members of other classes, however, racial paragons are more than merely powerful individuals. They are strong in all the ways that their race is strong, while still vulnerable in the ways that their race is vulnerable. Beyond that, they possess powers and capabilities that supersede those of normal members of their race.


Racial paragons rarely undergo the rigorous training or study that members of other classes commonly undertake between levels. Their experience, wisdom, and heroic abilities simply manifest in the form of superior innate racial abilities. Despite this strong association with race, racial paragons need not have specific views or special dedication to their race's beliefs or typical attitudes (although many do). Obviously, a character can only take levels in the racial paragon class associated with his race. Like the fighter, wizard, and other standard character classes, racial paragon classes have no prerequisites (other than being a member of the appropriate race). Levels in racial paragon classes are considered to be advancing in a favored class.

Here is an example of a racial paragon class for Tengu, called the Hishoken (link points to d20pfsrd.com).

Here is an example of a racial paragon class for Henge, called the Mushakemono.

It might be appropriate to try to design a racial paragon class for the Sen'garak. I would include progressively improving abilities surrounding using web nets, climbing, and poison. For example you could grant a class feature that works like Spiderwalk monk feat, without requiring slow fall as a prerequisite, but then you'd have to include something that replaces that granting differing distances that could be traveled using the Spiderwalk ability (since spiders should be able to walk upsidedown on the ceiling, among other places.) For web nets, some features can allow you to vary the size of the net (to determine how many creatures can be captured in a single net), distance net can be 'cast', whether a net can chosen to be still attached so you can net someone at distance then 'pull' them in with your webbing still attached to you. Perhaps improving your net casting to expand its abilities as discussed starting at 2nd level then every 4 levels (5 specific web casting abilities at 18th level). Do similar variations for poison use and climb.

 

[Daniel Runge]

Our initial idea was actually very close to that, we did not however know that it was called a racial paragon class, this might still be relevant to us.

I like it, and we might just return to that idea now that we have some reference material, but I feel like it doesn't quite capture the spirit of my character. My whole background and work so far would have to be redone.
Cenceptual struggles:
1. Can't really be a paragon of your race as a half-sen'garak can you? Then again, looking at the Half-elf spell Paragon Surge this might just be possible, maybe even the right way to do it.
2. If my character has received training to be an assassin or spy, that translates sort of into experience in a class (rogue), and repurposing his old training on his new path is the same, but experience as a monk.

Mechanical struggles:
3. While it is obvious that there is only 1 class to be balanced as a racial paragon, balancing a progression of 20 levels seems to be a more daunting task than most other aspects of the game I can think of at the time of writing.
4. Say we went ahead and created one such paragon race. While it is technically possible, is there any prevalence for archtypes amogst them? A relevant example could be: Standard Sen'garak, and an archtype(lack of better word) called Jumping Sen'garak? Standard has poison and webs, while jumping has jumping power or some sort fx. Or would this be strange? I mean, a racial paragon by the definition seems to be what we might call a Super-human - embracing all that is human and being better at it than all others.

Also, I can't seem to find anything related to Spiderwalk, only Spiderclimb, but the way you wrote it made it seem quite different.

Going to work on a basis for a racial paragon class nonetheless, might still be relevant someday for his world. Thank you.
Pinqh

 

[gamerprinter]

Our initial idea was actually very close to that, we did not however know that it was called a racial paragon class, this might still be relevant to us.

I like it, and we might just return to that idea now that we have some reference material, but I feel like it doesn't quite capture the spirit of my character. My whole background and work so far would have to be redone.
Cenceptual struggles:
1. Can't really be a paragon of your race as a half-sen'garak can you? Then again, looking at the Half-elf spell Paragon Surge this might just be possible, maybe even the right way to do it.
2. If my character has received training to be an assassin or spy, that translates sort of into experience in a class (rogue), and repurposing his old training on his new path is the same, but experience as a monk.

Mechanical struggles:
3. While it is obvious that there is only 1 class to be balanced as a racial paragon, balancing a progression of 20 levels seems to be a more daunting task than most other aspects of the game I can think of at the time of writing.
4. Say we went ahead and created one such paragon race. While it is technically possible, is there any prevalence for archtypes amogst them? A relevant example could be: Standard Sen'garak, and an archtype(lack of better word) called Jumping Sen'garak? Standard has poison and webs, while jumping has jumping power or some sort fx. Or would this be strange? I mean, a racial paragon by the definition seems to be what we might call a Super-human - embracing all that is human and being better at it than all others.

Also, I can't seem to find anything related to Spiderwalk, only Spiderclimb, but the way you wrote it made it seem quite different.

Going to work on a basis for a racial paragon class nonetheless, might still be relevant someday for his world. Thank you.
Pinqh

1. Agreed, and I don't know Paragon Surge off-hand. If you can make a half-race work somehow, great, though maybe go pure sen'garak...?
2&3. If you look at the Mushakemono racial paragon I posted, its kind of based on a cross between rogue and ranger, instead of rogue/ranger tricks, it got henge tricks - since henge are natural shapechangers, a lot of their abilities are tied to that. So you could build your class off an existing one, but replace all the abilities. So you could start with rogue or monk as a base. If you really want Sneak Attack, then looking at the rogue as the way to go. I'd also look at a build off monk as an option as well.

Another reason to base it off monk, is when I said spider walk - I meant spider step, a feat for monks from the APG, which allows monks to run up verticle faces, or upside down for up to their slow fall distance in movement, as long as you end upright on surface you can normally stand on, at the end of movement. Cloud step is next up that feat tree, that allows you to air walk the distance of your slow fall... So keep some of the monks abilities, but replace as you can with different abilities favoring poison use, climbing, web tricks, and acrobatics. I don't think you need sneak attack, but that's up to you.

4. Another Rite Publishing racial supplement (actually 2) In the Company of Minotaur (and In the Company of Monsters which is compilation of 7 or so different races, features the minotaur. So the Minotaur racial paragon class is a 20 level class. A standard minotaur is 4 HD, so the 4th level minotaur racial paragon class is identical to the bestiary minotaur. 1-3 are slightly weaker, 5+ progressively stronger. I cannot point to a version of this posted online, because it isn't there. However, the minotaur racial paragon class gets improvements to charge abilities, permanently grows in size up to huge at 20th, and gets more STR bonuses as he levels.

You have to play it by ear, but the above is best process I can recommend to build your own 20 level racial paragon class. Try to compare the power levels of your chosen abilities to those that you are replacing - it doesn't have to match the spirit of the replaced class feature, but be as close as possible in equivalent balance of power.

 

[Daniel Runge]

Building a paragon class around standard classes would only really be proper if fitting flavorwise? rogue/monk doesn't seem to fit on the drow like characters of the sen'garak. Perhaps rogue and something else, but monk is pretty far off. Monk was meant as a flavor fitting class, chosen to represent the "path of enlightenment" he hoped to walk, though it might have elements we can use, it is not the flavor.

The information is golden though, and we've gotten quite far on the design of the paragon class as a whole, so for this we thank you, and we're probably going to post our first draft on these forums as well to get a few eyes on them, such as yours.
Pinqh

 

[gamerprinter]

Building a paragon class around standard classes would only really be proper if fitting flavorwise? rogue/monk doesn't seem to fit on the drow like characters of the sen'garak. Perhaps rogue and something else, but monk is pretty far off. Monk was meant as a flavor fitting class, chosen to represent the "path of enlightenment" he hoped to walk, though it might have elements we can use, it is not the flavor.

The information is golden though, and we've gotten quite far on the design of the paragon class as a whole, so for this we thank you, and we're probably going to post our first draft on these forums as well to get a few eyes on them, such as yours.
Pinqh

Where did Drow come from? No where in this discussion did the word, drow, come up until just now. How does a drow influence this build and why should it? While I can agree that the class features of each class are meant to give "flavor" to a design, how a class is structured is completely mechanical, having absolutely nothing to do with flavor. In no way does the monk class's structure have anything to do with flavor.

Look at the monk class:

Monk has all the right skills for a stealth based class: stealth, perception, sense motive, etc. I think 4+INT is enough skill points though.

I'd replace flurry of blows, stunning fist, unarmed strike with attacks more attuned to using your poison, and however a sen'garak normally delivers its poison (bite, claw, other). I'd keep evasion, still mind, fast movement, maybe maneuver training.

I'd replace the Ki pool, as there is no need for Ki to create an effective assassin (we are not trying to recreate ninja, so no need for ki). Perhaps this is the skill I'd work a progression of abilities based on web casting. Perhaps replace ki pool with a 'web pool' with sen'garak tricks, and each trick a different special attack, use or maneuver using webs - some for distance, some for size of web (number of opponents captured), to make non-sticky webs, ability to pull a web-netted target towards you, etc.

Slow fall, I'd keep, in order to still have access to spider step and cloud step - as those movement types are great for 'assassin'. Plus flavor wise, descending slowly emulates a spider dropping downward on a thread of web.

High jump I'd keep or replace with something more related to climbing.

Purity of Body, I'd replace with immunity to poisons (balancing factor, we are working with sen'garak, which is a poisonous race).

Wholeness of Body, I'd probably keep, or you could again increase the virulence of your poison as a replacement.

Diamond Body, since poison immunity was granted at "purity of body" level, increase the toxicity of your poison at this level, perhaps lets you add a ranged spray attack with your poison (though that is at a lower DC save, due to lack of concentration of toxin, etc.)

Abundant Step and Diamond Soul I'd keep.

Quivering Palm should be replaced with a special poison attack, perhaps reducing the saving throw against your attack by -4 or -8.

All abilities from Timeless Body to Perfect Self should probably be replaced with assassin/sen'garak flavored abilities instead of monk flavored ones.

So with this build alteration above, I don't see how it reflects nor should reflect monk in flavor at all. It was just a template to base a class build off of, having absolutely nothing to do with flavor. In class feature design, think flavor, but in class structure its just a template and not 'flavor' at all.