Need help reducing campaign's magic intensity

[MythandLore]

BTW I agree with alot of peoples ideas on low magic worlds.
The easiest thing I do when I play if rate the world's level of magic then go from there.
First World: Normal Magical world like Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms.
Normal level of DnD magic.

Second World: Magic is uncommon in these worlds.
All magic powers are delayed back by one level.
(ie a Cleric can't cast a spell or turn undead until he's second level)
Magical Items cost twice as much as normal to create.

Thrid World:Magic is rare on these Worlds.
All magic powers are delayed back by two levels.
(ie a Paladin can't detect evil, lay on hands, etc until he's 3rd level)
Magic Items cost four times as much to create.
All non-human races are considered +1ECL greater then they normally are.
(ie an elf is +1ECL, a drow +3ECL)

Fourth World: Magic is ultra-rare on these worlds.
All magic powers are delayed by three levels.
(ie a Druid begins to wild shape at 8th level instead of 5th)
Magic Items cost eight times as much to create.
All non-human races are considered +1ECL greater then they normally are.
(ie an halfling is +1ECL, a deep gnome is +4ECL)

Fifth World: Magic is unheard of or belived only myth, like modern Earth.
All magic powers are delayed by four levels.
(ie a Wizard cannot even cast spells until he is fifth level)
Magic Items cost twenty times as much to create.
All non-human races are considered +2ECL greater then they normally are.
(ie an Half-Orc is +2ECL)

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

It's very hard to change how magic works in any way without affecting the balance between classes.

You'd be better off creating a new system from scratch using D20. That's what I did for 7th Sea D20.

I took the rogue, gave him an AC bonus based on his class like the scoundrel of star wars. Then I invented other classes (Duelist, Renaissance man, Courtier etc.) which I all balanced against the rogue.

 

[reapersaurus]

Why? Because rebalancing is a pain. If you tone them down so that each individual caster reflects the low-magic nature of the world, are you sure the character would still be useful? There's no fun in playing a character who can no longer pull their own weight, so if you plan on making spellcasters notably weaker than other classes, you might as well disallow them altogether and be done with it.

God Forbid the man try and tweak the mages.

THAT would be a heresy, certainly punishable by stoning!

The mages ungodly spell availability and power is one of the biggest sacred cows in D&D.

Who are you, Umbran, to wave your wand and advise him to not even look into toning down mages, because that would be "no fun, and make them weaker than other classes."

As for toning down the ridiculousness of magic, some of the best ideas I've heard mentioned here, and elsewhere, would be:
a) Deny the ability of mages to take full mage class levels.
Something about the inherent soul-cost, or body-cost in wielding that much forces of energy make it so that it would kill you taking more than half your levels in mage classes. (don't know how you'd approach clerics, and you'd have to tone down the bard spell lists/progression a bit.)
b) Remove most of the higher level spells.
Maybe slow down the spell list progression. The spell progression is RIPE for tweaking, since they're just numbers on a table.
c) Remove selected spells.
Carpe DM has a nice list there, and I agree with those, maybe adding other unbalancing spells like Haste, Improved Invisibility, Scry, Discern Lies, Discern Location, etc.

 

[MythandLore]

It's very hard to change how magic works in any way without affecting the balance between classes.

You'd be better off creating a new system from scratch using D20. That's what I did for 7th Sea D20.

I took the rogue, gave him an AC bonus based on his class like the scoundrel of star wars. Then I invented other classes (Duelist, Renaissance man, Courtier etc.) which I all balanced against the rogue.

The balance was never very good, classes were front loaded (ranger) stronger at lower levels (fighters/barbarians) and stronger at higher levels (clerics/wizards).
There really isn't a problem with affecting the balance between classes.
If the world is magic 'lite' then low level wizards really shouldn't be blasting people with fireballs as easily, it tends to even itself out for the most part, then no one 'really' wants to be a spellcaster because it truelly reflects how difficult it is to be one.
So if someone ever 'does' become a high level spellcaster he truely is powerful becuase no one would have close to the magic items and spells needed to stop him.
In a world where a +3 magical sword would cost 72,000gp (let alone 360,000gp) a creature with damage reduction becomes much more fantastic and amazing.

 

[Artoomis]

After reading a few more posts, I think if you do this well, you may be able to recapture the feeling that the player characters are truly special and unusual. That feeling seems to get lost all too often. They are supposed to be the cool heroes - the ones that save the day!

It would be so much better, in many ways, to do that without them having super-fantastic powers.

 

[Hypersmurf]

What about making Wizard and Sorcerer Prestige Classes?

Have Prerequisites like Knowledge : Arcana and Spellcraft 7 ranks each. That way, a bard or cleric could qualify at 4th level to level into Wizard at 5th. Someone with feats like Education and Cosmopolitan could do the same thing. Otherwise you're talking 11th level before a non-bard/cleric meets the prerequisites.

And once someone's spent four levels as a cleric or bard, they're less likely to want to multi-class out into another spellcasting class... so while it's possible, it keeps the classes rare in your campaign. Especially since the Cleric is having to aim for the class with his 2+Int skill points per level - Kn:Arc and Spellcraft take away from his Heal, Concentration, and Kn:Religion ranks...

And of course, with fewer arcane casters in the world, it's much harder for the PCs to find someone who can teach the budding wizard how to scribe a spellbook, or sell the new sorcerer the components he needs... to enter a new class like this, especially, you could require a mentor.

Just a thought.

-Hyp.

Edit: Mentor stuff added.

 

[Markus]

Has anyone tried granting universal MR to all creatures? Perhaps something like 5 + lvl or HD?

I am playing in a mid-low magic campaign.
The GM has done a great job, most of the magic is the type we use up (potions, wands, etc). We have some items, but most are fairly basic. We rarely have time for mages to create items (although we try), so when they do, it is typically potions.

I like a lot of the ideas above, but I would be careful of the game balance. I think it would be easy to knock it too far out of wack. But the best way is to try it out and see how it works

Markus

 

[Umbran]

Who are you, Umbran, to wave your wand and advise him to not even look into toning down mages, because that would be "no fun, and make them weaker than other classes."

*sigh*

Reaper, I'm just like you - a person with an opinion.

Now, I suggest you lay aside your current notion of what I said, and read my post again.

Note the following:
1) I am stating what I would do, and why. Never do I say that he would be violating any huge rules. I don't say he'd commit a sin. No stoning is implied. I say that I personally wouldn't do it, and why.

2) I ask a question, "...are you sure that...?" The question has two possibe answers - Yes, or No. Think about what each implies for the rest of the post.

3) There is a conditional, "...if you plan on...". Again, two possibilities - he meets the condition, or he does not. Again, what does each imply for the post as a whole?

After noting how important the questions and conditionals are to the meaning of the post, perhaps you will see that your reading was a bit sloppy, and that you jumped to conclusions. You really should read more carefully.

 

[Wippit Guud]

General changes:
No bonus spells based on high stats.

Cleric Change:
Get rid of spell list and progression, except for what levels you get spells. Cleric's now only gain domain spells, but receive every domain associated with their god. They get each domain spells 1/day in accourdance with when they get that level, and each domain power.

Druid Change:
Get rid of spell list and progression. Druid get access to the spells for plant, animal, and choice of 1 element domain. They do NOT gain the domain power. Animal friendship is a granted power at level 1, rather than a spell. Speak with animals is a granted power at level 3, rather than a spell. Speak with plants is a level 6 granted power, rather than a spell.

Wizard Change:
Full round casting.

Sorcerers Change:
Sorcerers do not exist.

Bard Change:
Full round casting, every spell requires the arcane focus of playing an instrument.