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Crazy idea that probably has no chance at all time!

Here is what I take 'Vancian spellcasting' to be, in essence. A mage carefully prepares spells in whatever manner you please; memorization of formulae seems like a common choice. Then, once cast, the spells disappear from his memory and cannot be prepared again until the next suitable opportunity. (Whether that be the next day, after a long rest, whatever.) The spells in a mage's workday are fixed that morning; afterward he can control only when he casts them.

There are some complications involving leaving slots open to be prepared later; ignore that for now. Can we agree that this is the essence of Vancian spellcasting?

What about that essence requires that a 5th level wizard be able to cast precisely 4 1st level spells, 3 2nd level spells, and 2 3rd level spells in a day? Obviously nothing - different editions have played with those exact numbers.

Doesn't freezing the number of slots per level seem needlessly restrictive, though? If Vancian casting is limited in the number of spells, and the power of spells, one can memorize - why doesn't one have any flexibility in terms of how one allocates one's disk space, so to speak?

It just occurred to me that something like the Next sorcerer's Willpower would work fine for a wizard, too. It's just instead of Willpower, it's something like Memory, or Magical Mastery; and the spells are prepared in the morning, instead of spontaneously. (With, again, perhaps some points left unprepared for later preparation.)

No doubt the costs of spell levels might need to be tweaked. Maybe it would be better for 2nd level spells to cost 4 and 3rd level 9, or 3 and 5, or whatever. I'm sure it can be worked out.

But given that necessary design work, where's the downside? You save a big chart of spell slots for each spellcasting class; you need only an extra column in the level table to give the amount of 'Magical Oomph' or 'Spell Levels per Day' or whatever. You give wizards a touch more flexibility, and perhaps even find it easier to balance them against sorcerers. And it sure seems to me to enhance verisimilitude, tricky subject though that may be.

The only thing that suffers is tradition. Or am I missing something?

P.S. Hm, I thought of something just before posting. It might lead to even more 'option freeze' on the part of wizard players?
 

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F700

First Post
A big part of Vancian casting for a lot of people is the need to plan a days spells before the need for them arises. Anticipating your strategy before the encounter occurs. I happen to be one of those people.

Not that my group hasn't houseruled that wizards don't need to memorize before, and can spontaneously cast any slot remaining.
 

slobster

Hero
I've always liked more flexible casters, and that's a rule that I've used in 3.x campaigns before. Replacing spell slots with a "mana pool" like that has a lot to recommend it, in my experience.

A big benefit is that there are fewer "filler" spots. A lot of wizards in my games have long lists of prepared spells, but only the top few levels are very important. That list gets so long at higher levels that some players routinely forget about spells that would be helpful in a given situation, because they have too many options to keep track of. Mana pools let them prepare more spells that they like in lieu of the raft of low level throw-away spells. If they want to play a swiss-army wizard, with options available for any obstacle, they still can. But they have an actual choice.

Far from leading to "option freeze", I found that players using mana points spend less time deciding on spells. The added flexibility lets them prepare the spells that they actually like. They no longer have to agonize over which of dozens of situationally useful minor spells to have in reserve, when really they just want another teleport or fireball.

It also helps address the 15 minute arcane adventuring day. With more usable options at their command in place of the glut of useless tricks they had before, wizards fight longer and more intensely, and have more fun.

All of this naturally led to slightly more power for the mana pool wizard compared to his spell slot counterparts, which I solved by deducting about 10-20% of his mana points compared to a normal wizard preparing the same spell list (mostly at high levels; low level wizards don't need the gimp). When designing a new wizard from scratch for a new edition, you obviously have the chance to define your own power level from scratch.

I suppose I should mention that it wasn't all sunshine and strawberry pancakes. I noticed a definite trend towards preparing lots of big, obvious spells. That's a lot of fun for the player, who likes chucking lots of dice and causing lots of property damage, so I don't begrudge them that. But sometimes I lamented the loss of creativity and spontaneity that you get when you've fired all your big guns and are down to your last few low level slots, the ones you hoped you never had to rely on. No more combinations of grease, a clever silent image, and a pit trap to achieve unexpected and hilarious results.

Still, this is a playtest. I say we try it and see how it goes.
 

A big part of Vancian casting for a lot of people is the need to plan a days spells before the need for them arises. Anticipating your strategy before the encounter occurs. I happen to be one of those people.

Not that my group hasn't houseruled that wizards don't need to memorize before, and can spontaneously cast any slot remaining.

I think you've misunderstood. The proposed version of the wizard still memorizes spells, there's no spontaneous casting involved at all.

slobster: Thanks, that was valuable input.

How did you cost out spell levels when you did 'mana pools'? Same as the Next sorcerer?

Looking at said sorcerer's chart, I do tend to dislike the sudden jump of Willpower when a new spell level is gained. A smoother progression would tend to reduce the number of points a bit in addition to being more aesthetically pleasing.
 

If I'm understanding the OP right, you're proposing something more along the lines of a wizard working like a ring of spellstoring, where he can memorize "X levels worth of spells, no spell higher than level Y" and let him figure out what he memorizes?

So, instead of 4 1st-level, 2 2nd-level, and 1 3rd-level slots, the wizard gets 10 spell levels, max level of 3, and he can choose to memorize:
  • 10 1st-level spells; or
  • 5 1st-level spells, 1 2nd-level spell, and 1 3rd-level spell; or
  • 5 2nd-level spells; or
  • 1 1st-level spell and 3 3rd-level spells; or
  • Etc.

It has promise.
 

slobster

Hero
If I'm understanding the OP right, you're proposing something more along the lines of a wizard working like a ring of spellstoring, where he can memorize "X levels worth of spells, no spell higher than level Y" and let him figure out what he memorizes?

So, instead of 4 1st-level, 2 2nd-level, and 1 3rd-level slots, the wizard gets 10 spell levels, max level of 3, and he can choose to memorize:
  • 10 1st-level spells; or
  • 5 1st-level spells, 1 2nd-level spell, and 1 3rd-level spell; or
  • 5 2nd-level spells; or
  • 1 1st-level spell and 3 3rd-level spells; or
  • Etc.

It has promise.
Pretty much, although the tradeoff might not be 1 for 1 per spell level like you suggest. For instance, when I used it in 3.5 we just took the psionic power cost progression and used it for the wizard and his spells. So a level 1 cost 1 spell point, level 2 cost 3, and it went up by 2 spell points per spell level from there.
 

Nellisir

Hero
If I'm understanding the OP right, you're proposing something more along the lines of a wizard working like a ring of spellstoring, where he can memorize "X levels worth of spells, no spell higher than level Y" and let him figure out what he memorizes?

So, instead of 4 1st-level, 2 2nd-level, and 1 3rd-level slots, the wizard gets 10 spell levels, max level of 3, and he can choose to memorize:
  • 10 1st-level spells; or
  • 5 1st-level spells, 1 2nd-level spell, and 1 3rd-level spell; or
  • 5 2nd-level spells; or
  • 1 1st-level spell and 3 3rd-level spells; or
  • Etc.

It has promise.

That's what I read also. It's basically a spellpoint system.

Off the cuff, there are at least two components of spell "systems": power and preparation.
In D&D, power = level, and allocation of levels can be fixed a la the traditional spellcasters, or flexible, per the casters description.
Preparation can be fixed (spell-like abilities) changeable at fixed intervals (wizards), on-the-fly, or something else.
Quantity might be a third metric. Wizards have quantity; 3e sorcerers don't.

In my 3e games, I made wizards chose their spells as normal, but they could then cast from that list as a sorcerer did. The sorcerer was rebuilt into something completely different.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
P.S. Hm, I thought of something just before posting. It might lead to even more 'option freeze' on the part of wizard players?

Yes, you can do spell preparation with a spell point system. And yes, it could well lead to option-overload for those who don't want to go that deep into analysis of *exactly* what's best. The spell slot system means that a caster will generally have a spread of high, medium, and low-power spells. What you suggest opens the possibility of a caster shooting themselves in the foot by over preparing in one realm, and under-preparing in another.

In addition, you do have to be careful in terms of balance. A spontaneous caster typically has a limited spells known list, but freedom of choice at the time of casting. A Vancian caster (potentially) has a huge freedom in the spell known list, but is very restricted at time of casting. Done well, there's some balance between the two.

Your suggestion, in a way, reduces some of the restriction on the vancian caster. Somebody who is very good at optimization could make great use of that loosening.

None of which says it cannot work. Just things to think about.
 
Last edited:

slobster

Hero
Yes, you can do spell preparation with a spell point system. And yes, it could well lead to option-overload for those who don't want to go that deep into analysis of *exactly* what's best.

It also swings the other way. Somebody who has absolutely no interest in analyzing the optimal loadout just picks the coolest sounding spells and loads up on them. That isn't an option with the traditional D&D vancian caster, because he has to sort through so many levels of spell options instead of just focusing on the most powerful/appealing on the entire list, and ignoring everything else.

In addition, you do have to be careful in terms of balance. A spontaneous caster typically has a limited spells known list, but freedom of choice at the time of casting. A Vancian caster (potentially) has a huge freedom in the spell known list, but is very restricted at time of casting. Done well, there's some balance between the two.

Your suggestion, in a way, reduces some of the restriction on the vancian caster. Somebody who is very good at optimization could make great use of that loosening.

That was certainly an issue in adapting the existing wizard class to a new system, let me tell you!

With 5E, though, we are starting from scratch. If you find that the class is too powerful, you have a lot of time to tweak the number of spell points or the power of the spells available to address the issue.

Mind you, sorcerers and warlocks seem pretty beefy in the playtest compared to wizards so far. Wizards might actually benefit from the boost!
 

There is nothing wrong with the idea... and actually, it is not new. ;)
Spells and magic of ADnD had an option for wizards to use spell points instead of slots.
It even had metamagic built in. (Increase the cost of the spell by 50% to cast as if you were one level higher...)

Spell poitn cost as following:

1 - 4
2 - 6
3 - 10
4 - 15

This made wizards really flexible and lessened downtime.
 

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