D&D 4E New 4E: Divorcing Class and Role (and what is a controller?)

Tony Vargas

Legend
Oh, and yes, I love the possibility this idea raises of a Fighter martial controller who interdicts an area with his preternatural skill at pole-arms or the infamous spiked chain like in 3e, and a Martial Controller in the vein of Wrecan's 'Hector' warlord functions, and a bow-using ranger controller that doesn't resort to primal invokations for all his meaningful control functions, and deceptive/cunning rogue controller making fools of his enemies.
 

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That's fair.

Another line would be that Rituals accomplish things (including things that can't be accomplished through normal application of skills) through supernatural means available only to ritual casters, while skill challenges accomplish things /anyone/ might do with enough knowledge, experience, and teamwork. Martial Practices, had they gotten a better treatment, would presumably have accomplished things that normal skill applications couldn't, but through super-human, but not supernatural, means. Rather like martial powers.

In fact in HoML I simply did away with the distinction between 'practice' and 'ritual', as well as the need to acquire a specific feat in order to perform ritualistic actions. This at least removes a lot of hair-splitting and awkwardness. Different rituals are then classified simply by association with a power source where that makes sense. I also consider rituals to be more of a special case of powers. This means there's no specific rule that requires them all to be written, etc. You can write a ritual in a book, which is useful if you want to sell it or buy it, but isn't required for mastery and use (IE you can simply teach them to people). They are thus classified as 'minor boons', although most of them actually accrue to existing boons, minor or major.

This also allows interesting possibilities, like treating certain powers like rituals, ala 5e, if you wish.
 

pemerton

Legend
Still want to see a solid martial controller ;) Such as a Warlord who specializes in manipulating enemies.
Well, I still think that the right sort of defender (AoE, marking, prone, etc) is a martial controller. That's how the polearm dwarf in my game plays (and has played since about 7th level, when he got CaGI).

He doesn't have the range of a controller, but between Might Sprint and a bit of help from his friends (eg sorcerer's Dominant Winds) he is rasonably mobile.
 

thanson02

Explorer
That's fair.

Another line would be that Rituals accomplish things (including things that can't be accomplished through normal application of skills) through supernatural means available only to ritual casters, while skill challenges accomplish things /anyone/ might do with enough knowledge, experience, and teamwork. Martial Practices, had they gotten a better treatment, would presumably have accomplished things that normal skill applications couldn't, but through super-human, but not supernatural, means. Rather like martial powers.
Martial Practices did need better treatment, no lie. They did follow certain patterns though.

• Give a +10 to a particular skill check
• Able to replace 2 skill checks with another if your choice
• give bonuses to particular things you do like fortifying animals and campsites

And not to mention other things as well. I've been in the process of cross comparing Martial Practices with Skill Utility Powers and found some interesting stuff. Although it doesn't help that what was published in Martial Power 2 came out before Skill Powers came out, so it came off a little wonky. However because of a recent conversation, I've been rethinking the role of Martial Powers in relation to encounter types (combat, social, exploration).

Some ideas that popped up were warriors taking an hour to hone their weapons and armor in order to give it stat bonuses for a period of time (combat, and could be done by reworking Forge Armor and Forge Weapon). Looking at the martial practice is already in the book, most of them seem to work well with exploration based events anyways and I'm just starting the process.

We will see what I come up with.

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk
 

Martial Practices did need better treatment, no lie. They did follow certain patterns though.

• Give a +10 to a particular skill check
• Able to replace 2 skill checks with another if your choice
• give bonuses to particular things you do like fortifying animals and campsites

And not to mention other things as well. I've been in the process of cross comparing Martial Practices with Skill Utility Powers and found some interesting stuff. Although it doesn't help that what was published in Martial Power 2 came out before Skill Powers came out, so it came off a little wonky. However because of a recent conversation, I've been rethinking the role of Martial Powers in relation to encounter types (combat, social, exploration).

Some ideas that popped up were warriors taking an hour to hone their weapons and armor in order to give it stat bonuses for a period of time (combat, and could be done by reworking Forge Armor and Forge Weapon). Looking at the martial practice is already in the book, most of them seem to work well with exploration based events anyways and I'm just starting the process.

We will see what I come up with.

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk

The only 'beef' I had with Martial Practices, and its not impossible to address, is that they, in effect, become a set of 'secondary skills' that impose incompetence on anyone that doesn't have them. For example, an MP 'fortify campsite', implies that you NEED that MP to be able to fortify a campsite!

I think there are two ways to look at it. For very esoteric niche things its fine. So, not everyone can forge a passport, you really do HAVE to train in some fashion to do that, and just having Thievery at +20 isn't specific enough. You want to forge documents, learn the MP 'Forge Document'. As long as designers are VERY careful to keep to this niche concept its OK. The problem is the question of how it relates to powers (particularly skill powers). Its easy to end up with an MP that basically grants a power or obviates any number of powers. Again this is probably an issue of generality. MPs that grant skill bonuses need to do so for VERY specific situations and require sufficient prep or resource expenditure to avoid stepping on skill powers.

I think WotC abandoned MPs for the simple reason that it required so much designer discipline and if they let all the various freelancers loose with it they probably felt they'd end up with a lot of stuff cluttering Dragon articles that was going to amount to "get a +5 to your Stealth check pretty much any old time if you just do this practice first", or "build a boat" and things like that, which run into the above problems.

I hate to say it, but I created the solution to this sorts of problems in my game. NOTHING is granted except by operation of the plot of the game. There is no concept of the character 'leveling up' and THEN the player goes off and attaches new stuff to his character. Nor is the idea of simply buying new capabilities really a thing. You complete encounters, which generate boons, which are related to the action, and that provides you with new stuff (though maybe it can be indirect, like you learn where to go to get certain training, or make an ally who shows you how to do something).

You can of course pretty much play this way in 4e, it just wasn't the standard convention that evolved for 4e where players are expecting to have access to anything in the book and just get a budget to work with.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Martial Practices did need better treatment, no lie. They did follow certain patterns though.

• Give a +10 to a particular skill check
• Able to replace 2 skill checks with another if your choice
• give bonuses to particular things you do like fortifying animals and campsites
Nod, pretty mundane. Setting up 'terrain powers' would have been an obvious thing, in retrospect.

I've been rethinking the role of Martial Powers in relation to encounter types (combat, social, exploration).
There was a lot of room left to develop the other two pillars. I've often let powers be used in Skill Challenges, myself - not just the ones that give a skill-roll-related perk.

Some ideas that popped up were warriors taking an hour to hone their weapons and armor in order to give it stat bonuses for a period of time (combat, and could be done by reworking Forge Armor and Forge Weapon). Looking at the martial practice is already in the book, most of them seem to work well with exploration based events anyways and I'm just starting the process.
Ooh, that'd be a nice alternative to just flipping the Inherent Bonus switch for a low magic game. Just include a clause that any magic on the weapon that keys of enhancement uses the magical enhancement, not the Honed-Weapon enhancement.

The only 'beef' I had with Martial Practices, and its not impossible to address, is that they, in effect, become a set of 'secondary skills' that impose incompetence on anyone that doesn't have them. For example, an MP 'fortify campsite', implies that you NEED that MP to be able to fortify a campsite!
That's the hazard of keeping martial abilities mundane - one that well-meaning designers have wrecked their versions of fighters and the like on again and again.
 



Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Nor is the idea of simply buying new capabilities really a thing. You complete encounters, which generate boons, which are related to the action, and that provides you with new stuff (though maybe it can be indirect, like you learn where to go to get certain training, or make an ally who shows you how to do something).

hmmmm I figured hiding the GPs that pay for those inneffable trainings or arrival of the extraordinary item in "Karma points" allowed me to track this stuff acquisition in units easily translated. (it can be a DM tool) The only time it enters other wise is if a player wants to learn one of these things from another player... ie the student can only learn when the student is ready.... sort of an abstraction. Giving Karma/Charity points for literal giving away resources to strangers in need also addresses the problem of players teaching each other. (they still "cost")
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Some ideas that popped up were warriors taking an hour to hone their weapons and armor in order to give it stat bonuses for a period of time (combat, and could be done by reworking Forge Armor and Forge Weapon).

I am so stealing that one and calling it Hone Arms...
More Details?

I already have Forge Mastery that merges Forge Armor and Forge Weaponry and enables more magical effects as well.

forgemastery.png
 

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