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New D&D Survey: What Do you Want From Older Editions?

WotC has just posted this month's D&D feedback survey. This survey asks about content from older editions of D&D, including settings, classes and races. The results will help determine what appears in future Unearthed Arcana columns.

WotC has just posted this month's D&D feedback survey. This survey asks about content from older editions of D&D, including settings, classes and races. The results will help determine what appears in future Unearthed Arcana columns.

The new survey is here. The results for the last survey have not yet been compiled. However, WotC is reporting that the Waterborne Adventures article scored well, and that feedback on Dragon+ has been "quite positive".

"We also asked about the new options presented in the Waterborne Adventures installment of Unearthed Arcana. Overall, that material scored very well—on a par with material from the Player’s Handbook. Areas where players experienced trouble were confined to specific mechanics. The minotaur race’s horns created a bit of confusion, for example, and its ability score bonuses caused some unhappiness. On a positive note, people really liked the sample bonds and how they helped bring out the minotaur’s unique culture.

The mariner, the swashbuckler, and the storm sorcerer also scored very well. A few of the specific mechanics for those options needed some attention, but overall, players and DMs liked using them.

Finally, we asked a few questions about the Dragon+ app. We really appreciate the feedback as we tailor the app’s content and chart the course for future issues. The overall feedback has been quite positive, and we’re looking at making sure we continue to build on our initial success."
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I'm not convinced that there really is enough left over for the warlord to be its own class.

If they are going to continue putting out new classes, overlap of niches is going to happen.

And, given they already have a wizard, a sorcerer, *and* a warlock, I am not sure "not enough left over to be its own class" is as meaningful as one might think.

Nice thing is, for those who are dead set against the idea of martial healing, since it's siloed off into one single class or subclass, it's pretty easy to ignore.

This, I agree with.
 

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spinozajack

Banned
Banned
This is forum meme that is pure nonsense.

Mike Mearls has written about player vs character understanding of the same mechanic in Legends and Lore, but I can't seem to find any links on their site any more. He even explicitly calls out what an "associated" mechanic is in the same article.

I would take time to find it if I believe it would change your mind, but it probably won't. I have better things to do than argue about whether the 5e designers know what an associated vs disassociated mechanic is. Simple and straightforward, clear, natural language mechanics that have a similar thought process behind whether to use it if from the player or character point of view, is a good example of an associated mechanic. 5th edition is largely built on the concept. Things like trying to trip or prone an enemy, swing a sword or dodge are purely associated mechanics. Not so in 4th edition "powers", which needed often needed interpretation and a character in the world would often have no way of knowing what was happening. For example, marking. What does it mean? What does it do? It was a meaningless concept that the character didn't think about, but the player did. That's disassociated.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
(The name of the class on the other hand, I can't tolerate.)
It's funny, because it's the best name they've ever come up with. Marshal is terrible - it has two possible meanings, to Europeans, it's a general, so locks in military rank and all that implies, to Americans, it's a law-enforcement officer, totally inappropriate. Most other alternatives are military ranks, or otherwise imply rank (like Captain, which can also refer to the civilian commander of of ship) - too narrow in what they imply, and in-use, today, so bringing with them modern anachronisms. Warlord both has a strong fantasy sound to it, and has no implication of military rank. A Warlord can lead merely by example, by formal authority such as military rank, by acclaim, by threat, etc... And, yes, a Warlord could be an aweful person like a tribal strongman or rapacious orc chieftain - just as a Sorcerer or Wizard is often a villain in genre (or RL, where 'Sorcerers' are charlatans who exploit the superstitious).

I'm not really seeing anything substantive that is missing from the warlord's schtick in the offerings we currently have. Unless I don't know how to read the 4e PHB, the warlord's main things were healing and buffing allies and granting them actions.

The Rally maneuver heals allies (temp hit points).and the Inspiring Leader feat buffs your entire party's hit points.
Not healing. Healing can stand a fallen ally. Temps are a very appropriate buff for the Warlord, and he had a lot of things to grant them, but they're not healing. They don't even fit the name, which implies recovery. If Inspiring Leader were hp-recovery, it'd only make thing worse, since it'd be giving the Warlord's fairly unique schtick to anyone who wanted it.
The Distracting Strike maneuver buffs an ally's attack,
The Maneuvering Attack maneuver allows you to grant an ally movement, and the Commander's Strike maneuver lets you grant an ally an attack.
CS dice are just too few, and these effects to minor. You can do one of these a couple of times between rests, and their impact is minor. Commander's Strike, Wolf Pack Tactics, and Furious Smash did those three things in 4e, and they were at wills, and they didn't obviate the need for the hundreds of other maneuvers the class had to choose from.

Conceptually, I can't see anything else needed to fit the archetype than a Battle Master fighter taking those 4 maneuvers and that feat.
Would you think a Rogue with expertise in arcana who could learn 4 cantrips and take a Ritual Caster feat would be an adequate replacement for the Wizard, Sorcerer, and Warlock? That's how far your Battlemaster is from being a Warlord.

Would the demand for a warlord feel met by a list of new maneuvers to provide additional options? I mean, that could be done, but even then it seems like the current maneuvers more or less have the bases covered. There are only so many things to mechanically do in 5e combat.
That is another issue. 5e obviates some potential maneuvers by removing a lot of depth from combat in the name of speeding it up. That just means any maneuvers or resources modeling tactics/strategy/etc need to be yet more abstract.

Battlemaster-style manuevers are hopelessly hobbled by the need too keep the class balanced in spite Fighter's very potent, high-DPR, easily-breakable, multiple attacks. A Warlord class wouldn't be a DPR monster, and probably wouldn't make multiple attacks (at least, not himself, every round - possibly he'd have some options that allow them sometimes).

Perhaps a new Fighting Style that is only half about fighting and half about warlording somehow (take the Mariner style for precedent).
No style, sub-class, feat or background takes away from a class the way you'd need to take away from the fighter to make room for the kinds of abilities needed. The fighter's core, before sub-class, is so focused on high single-target DPR, that it's not given any meaningful features to use in Interaction or Exploration, for instance - no other class is so invested in a single function as to require such extreme measures to balance.

I mean, really, I think it may be an emotional appeal more than a logical appeal.
Actually, it's the objection to the warlord that's emotional. The reaction to the name. The reaction to non-magical hp restoration. The lingering, irrational, spite still directed at 4e.

I get it. I wanted an assassin base class. Why? Because they felt different than just a type of rogue.
It was a Thief 'sub class' from the beginning, and it's abilities have never been that different from the fighter. It's like the Illlusionist, that way.

Now, if you wanted a 4e Assassin, with Shrouds, no, the Rogue sub-class wouldn't cut it. But you'd be talking a de-facto caster, or at last magic-using class of somekind.


The point is that assassin is covered by rogue in the level of detail and abstraction that fits 5e. Warlord seems to be covered by the Battle Master in a similar level of 5e-appropriate detail.
It's really, really not. The assassin started as a Thief sub-class, has been nothing more than a Kit at times, and has always just done some of what a thief does, plus disguise (which thieves/rogues have been able to do for a while) and death attack. The 5e Assassin does most of what a thief does, plus death attack. It works because they are very similar. The same is not true of the Warlord, which has always been a full class, and which does a great many things the fighter has never been able to, and has never had the uber-DPR of the 2e figther that is the template for the 5e fighter.

I can understand not being happy with a favored class being just a sub-build of a subclass (those 4 maneuvers are the only ones that have anything to do with being a warlord). But I can't really see how a warlord class could be elegantly introduced to the 5e class design space. It has to pretty much either just be a few more maneuver or feat options, or it has to add an entirely new set of systems to 5e, and risk throwing off the way the various elements of the game cohere.
The 'coherence' of 5e is a non-issue, balance was never a goal, and they DM imposes as much balance or coherence as he feels his campaign needs.

Design space for new martial classes is wide open. Consider the existing all-martial classes: there are none. Now, consider the few exclusively martial sub-classes: The Barbarian (high DPR), the Champion (high DPR), the Battlemaster (high DPR), the Thief (high DPR, skills) and the Assassin (high DPR, skills).

So, what's left: everything but high DPR and traditional 'thief' skills (stealth, thieves tools, etc). That is a tremendous amount of design space, including the Leader, Defender, and Controller formal roles from 4e.

The Warlord was not a high DPR class (it could goose other class's DPR, but it wasn't, one, itself), didn't really impinge on the Thief's traditional skill bailiwick, and was a Leader (secondary defender or, maybe controller, if you squinted).

There is not only room for the Warlord, but an expansive Void where the 4e Fighter and Warlord should be.


Would the Warlord work as a nonmagical Paladin archetype?
No, but a non-magical Paladin archetype could be pretty darn awesome! I've had one percolating, but haven't really tried to bang it into shape. Called "Oath of Fealty." The idea is a knight as committed and honorable as a Paladin, but committed to a temporal power or cause, like a King or order or nation.
 
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Halloween_Jack

First Post
Mike Mearls has written about player vs character understanding of the same mechanic in Legends and Lore, but I can't seem to find any links on their site any more. He even explicitly calls out what an "associated" mechanic is in the same article.

I would take time to find it if I believe it would change your mind, but it probably won't. I have better things to do than argue about whether the 5e designers know what an associated vs disassociated mechanic is. Simple and straightforward, clear, natural language mechanics that have a similar thought process behind whether to use it if from the player or character point of view, is a good example of an associated mechanic. 5th edition is largely built on the concept. Things like trying to trip or prone an enemy, swing a sword or dodge are purely associated mechanics. Not so in 4th edition "powers", which needed often needed interpretation and a character in the world would often have no way of knowing what was happening. For example, marking. What does it mean? What does it do? It was a meaningless concept that the character didn't think about, but the player did. That's disassociated.
I don't need you to explain dumb edition war memes to me, I'm familiar with all of them.

Associated/dissociated mechanics is hot garbage. It's based on a notion of "immersion" that is out of touch with reality and likes it that way. In the very same essay the author acknowledges that hit points don't make sense either, but they get a pass because...look at the silly monkey!

Spinozadude, I'm going to tell you about a great class I just invented. It's called the MAGIC Warlord. The MAGIC Warlord uses MAGIC to inspire the party to do MAGIC things, giving MAGIC bonuses and MAGIC free attacks and healing wounds with MAGIC! There, feel better now?

The only indictment of "Verisimilitudinous Associated Immersion" that's needed is that every single related complaint vanishes instantly when that precious codeword, "magic," is invoked. Immersion geeks take some fractured notion of realism extremely, extremely seriously but as long as something is "magic" you don't care.

Because magic doesn't have to make sense, does it? Except that it should. Why can a paladin only lay on hands 3/day? If magic is written down, why can't anyone who can read a spellbook's language memorize a spell? Why are spells "memorized," anyway? What god made magic work like that? How can you memorize a spell twice? I don't memorize a recipe in 2 or 3 different parts of my brain. Why is magic divided into 2 types? Why do clerics have to prepare spells, and why do they have limits at all? If D&D gods are aware of all things in their sphere of influence, why don't they give extra spells to clerics fighting for them when they really need them?

I've put this question to the Alexandrian himself, and his smug, stupid answer was that if you want to know how and why the gods grant spells, go ask them. That’s a terrible answer, because you can! You can go to Pelor or Lord Ao and ask them why, and their answer will be whatever excuse the DM makes up. There is no "in-universe" logic behind why magic in D&D works the way it does. The answer is "Gary stole it from Jack Vance, and it worked well enough at the time." There are just as many "gamist" conceits related to your precious MAGIC as there are for martial skills, but you pretend they don't exist because you have this broken, clockwork-universe perspective on how a fictional world works.

D&D is a fantasy game, not a virtual reality simulation. If you can't deal, maybe you should try a different game, where the designers cared very, very deeply about perfectly simulating many aspects of reality. Believe it or not, there are other games out there, and you don't have to "quit tabletop forever" if you don't like the latest edition of D&D.
 

Fralex

Explorer
Warlord, Avenger and Invoker were 3 I'd like to see.

I understand why people don't feel the battlemaster is a sufficient warlord, but how is avenger not covered by the paladin subclass? Aren't they just really angry paladins? The one I'm playing right now feels fine.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Actually, it's the objection to the warlord that's emotional. The reaction to the name. The reaction to non-magical hp restoration. The lingering, irrational, site still directed at 4e.
My objection is to non-magical healing in combat, whether done by a warlord or by anyone else. :) I see healing as something mostly done in safety after the battle's over, and that should be very risky to do during battle. Shouting at someone to keep them going, while elegant and dramatic, doesn't carry much risk; where trying to cast a spell in the middle of a battle certainly does - or certainly should.

I could be wrong, but reading between some lines tells me there's a large overlap between those who want the warlord back and those who are looking to do away with (or very much reduce the role of) the traditional healer or combat medic. So what then becomes of the Cleric?
No, but a non-magical Paladin archetype could be pretty darn awesome! I've had one percolating, but haven't really tried to bang it into shape. Called "Oath of Fealty." The idea is a knight as committed and honorable as a Paladin, but committed to a temporal power or cause, like a King or order or nation.
Did you vote for 'Cavalier', then? That could easily be your jumping-off point for a class like this.

Lanefan
 

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