New Design & Development: Feats

[Ahglock]

If they're so greatly simplifying monster stat blocks, the summoning should be much less of a problem. That's the whole thrust of 4E combat, right? – to play through slightly larger combats, faster. If a couple of tagalongs in the party "wreck" this, it doesn't say very much for achieving this goal in general.

I never had a problem in 3e. i just asked the player what do you want to do with your monsters, I rolled a stack of dice and it was usually resolved in under a minute.

But yes you are right if the attack a pile of monsters is there current design goal, one I really like(wasn't a fan of the one monster or small groups 3e emphasized) the summoner with a horde shouldn't be a problem in any game.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Invocation can summon.

Missed that in the Warlock entry after reading through the bit on the Cleric, looks like they've just narrowed it from a common element of arcane and divine magic to something more specific.

 

[GrinningBuddha]

Summoning has always had a strong arcane feel to me, so I'd be perfectly happy to have it as the sole domain of the arcane classes.

 

[MerricB]

That still seems like a very strange design decision to me. In 3.x when a new mechanical system was introduced (Psi,Incarnum,Bo9S,ToM) they always had some feats that allowed existing characters to dabble in the new mechanic. To allow a group to wet their toes before diving in headfirst. By redefining feats they've removed that option and so any new system introductions will now have a steeper learning curve because they took away the kiddie pool.

What I expect you'll find is that those feats will be now be subsumed in the new way of having talents and multiclassing. So, you'll be able to dabble in a new system with 4e - in fact, possibly easier than in 3e.

Cheers!

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Also, summoning is a pretty cool concept, and if removing it from the wizard repertoire means a chance to really sit back and do it right, to really make it its own animal, then I'm all for it.

AAAAAmen!

 

[Jack99]

Looks like it will be an arcane ability.

Cleric: no summoning according to the preview book.

Warlock: confirmed that they can summon

Wizard: no info as of yet, but conjurer was mentioned at some point? Either way, if it exists, it's fairly likely the wizard will be able to summon.

Druid: as per the preview book:

Druid: Their spellcasting takes second seat. The primary ability is wildshape, which they can do a lot more often, but only shapes they have picked (like spells). They have some nature related spell to canst when in humanoid form.

All of which is good if true. I agree that summoning always fitted better as an arcane ability.

 

[Stogoe]

If after great effort you still can't fix it, yes removing it can be an option, the absolute last option though.

Well, look at what they've done. They've left out things that are amazingly tough nuts to crack temporarily as their last option, so they could bring them back in ways that both work well and are effective, rather than dumping a bunch of half-thought-out, broken, weak, game-breaking junk in the PHB.

 

[Wormwood]

If after great effort you still can't fix it, yes removing it can be an option, the absolute last option though.

In all likelyhood, Wizards just punted this problem downfield. I'm sure it'll be addressed by the time we see Core 2.

 

[D.Shaffer]

If they're so greatly simplifying monster stat blocks, the summoning should be much less of a problem. That's the whole thrust of 4E combat, right? – to play through slightly larger combats, faster. If a couple of tagalongs in the party "wreck" this, it doesn't say very much for achieving this goal in general.

Faster combats and simpler statistics? Sure. but a LOT of that is dependent on the DM setup of the encounter first. Everything, for the most part is already down and it's just the DM glancing at his prewritten notes. Compare this to 3rd ed summoning. The caster checks to see what summoning spells he has, then checks the list to see what he can summon with them, then crunches the numbers to see which he wants to use, then he spends an entire round summoning it, and then he needs to pull out the stats to use them, and then he spends more time with them then the other characters. With more advanced players, you can mitigate some of those issues, but the base problem still exists in that the summoner is taking more time for his creatures then the other players. Some players wont have a problem with this, but others do.

Yeah great so the first PH is half a game, where eventually you can buy enough crap to get the full game you used to play.

You're never going to get EVERY possible archetype a player can want into the first PHB anyways, so why not take the time to pass off some of them to be a better fit? In all previous editions, it often took a few supplements before certain archetypes showed up. In this particular case, we might losing one particular aspect, but it looks like we're gaining certain archetypical structures.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Faster combats and simpler statistics? Sure. but a LOT of that is dependent on the DM setup of the encounter first. Everything, for the most part is already down and it's just the DM glancing at his prewritten notes. Compare this to 3rd ed summoning. The caster checks to see what summoning spells he has, then checks the list to see what he can summon with them, then crunches the numbers to see which he wants to use, then he spends an entire round summoning it, and then he needs to pull out the stats to use them, and then he spends more time with them then the other characters. With more advanced players, you can mitigate some of those issues, but the base problem still exists in that the summoner is taking more time for his creatures then the other players. Some players wont have a problem with this, but others do.

That is a player problem not a summoning problem. People complain about polymorph, wildshape, and summoning all with this specific note. "All the time it takes!" One very simple ruling eliminates this problem entirely for all three of those actions. Inform players that wildshapes, summoning, and polymorphs must be pre-statted to use, the spend forever deciding and looking up the numbers goes away with that one provision.