New Design: Wizards...

[Rechan]

Perhaps a Druid has no such implements, but is instead 'locale relevant'.

With its feet on solid earth the Druids earth-based magic is augmented, when flying its air-based magic is augmented.

Air
Earth
Plant...when standing with grass beneath their feet.
Water

While interesting, I have the feeling that would get irksome quickly. Assuming the other classes like the Wizard and Cleric and such can carry around their implements, it would be very crippling for a Druid if he can't.

Sort've like how your druid can't cast Entangle in a dungeon because there's no plants.

 

[jasin]

The War domain provides a cleric with martial proficiency and focus in his deity's favored weapon. If he doesn't have a deity, he picks his favored weapon. The war domain also gives him access to Divine Power.

An 8th level cleric with the Magic domain is treated like a 4th level wizard when casting from scrolls, wands or other spell-devices. The cleric grabs a wand of Polymorph and a scroll of stoneskin. He casts polymorph into an Ogre (4 HD, what he can assume), casts Divine Power, and Stoneskin, then picks up a huge reach weapon (said reach weapon is the weapon he picked as his god's favored weapon).

He'd be better off as a troll or a hag. That wand isn't CL 4th, even though the cleric effectively is.

But a cleric with a friendly wizard (and what PC doesn't have a friendly wizard?) could go around polymorphed into a troll without Magic, and he could cast divine power without War, and use a longspear, a simple reach weapon not that much worse than the martial polearms.

Instead, he could have Travel, with it's dimension door and longstrider and freedom of movement as needed, things no allied wizard can give you.

And Luck, with it's awesome lifesaver of a domain power, that cannot be picked up elsewhere like proficiencies and Weapon Focus can. And there's also moment of prescience.

Fharlanghn, a PHB deity, grants both Travel and Luck.

Letting clerics just pick their domain freely really doesn't appreciably increase their power. And even if it does, it's not because you can pick War and Magic. They're good, but not that good.

 

[Jer]

In other words, the Cleric is bar none the most powerful class in the game. Giving him access to any domain, with all their variable abilities and potential combos, makes him even more powerful.

And yet - this has never been a problem in my 3e games. Even the one time I had a player with a cleric with the Magic and War domains.

Also - what you're describing doesn't sound that overpowering to me - an 8th level wizard could also transform an 8th level cleric of a god of War into an ogre and you'd end up with the same thing - except the cleric would still have his action that round. I'm not sure why something that could be accomplished by a party in one round is suddenly unbalanced if the same party can accomplish it in two rounds.

And I don't think that the designers think that domain selection is a place where balance is an issue, since there are rules in various places about worshiping a pantheon instead of a single god, and when you worship a pantheon you can select any two domains represented by anyone in the pantheon. In Eberron, a cleric of the Sovreign Host can pretty much have any two domains he wants, since all of the core domains are covered by the Host.

 

[Rechan]

And yet - this has never been a problem in my 3e games. Even the one time I had a player with a cleric with the Magic and War domains.

I'm glad that you've never encountered it as a problem. I've never played in a game where Polymorph was used, but my lack of personal experience with it doesn't discount the potential for abuse.

And I don't think that the designers think that domain selection is a place where balance is an issue, since there are rules in various places about worshiping a pantheon instead of a single god

I could counter by pointing out that in Forgotten Realms, it states Clerics must worship a Deity, as it was stated earlier. And in the PHB it says you can select any two domains.

Just because it is not acknowledged by being a potential for abuse doesn't mean it can't be abused.

 

[Rechan]

He'd be better off as a troll or a hag. That wand isn't CL 4th, even though the cleric effectively is.

Ah, thank you for that.

As far as the Friendly Wizard, the Friendly Wizard is expending a 4th level spell slot, which is reducing his effectiveness, whereas the Wand isn't effecting the party's overall capacity. If you wanted to undercut the example, you could say the Wizard uses the wand instead of wasting one of his spells.

Instead, he could have Travel, with it's dimension door and longstrider and freedom of movement as needed, things no allied wizard can give you.

And Luck, with it's awesome lifesaver of a domain power, that cannot be picked up elsewhere like proficiencies and Weapon Focus can. And there's also moment of prescience.

Fharlanghn, a PHB deity, grants both Travel and Luck.

Must have been added in the 3.5 PHB. But thank you for helping my point.

Letting clerics just pick their domain freely really doesn't appreciably increase their power. And even if it does, it's not because you can pick War and Magic. They're good, but not that good.

I was using Magic and War as an example. There are worse combinations, especially as previously noted, when you consider suppliments. There's a domain in most suppliments, campaign settings, etc.

Your mileage may vary, but I'm going to heavily scrutinize a player that just says "I'm going to pick my domains, forget the gods".

 

[Jer]

Just because it hasn't been an issue in your game doesn't mean that it isn't an issue.

This is true - anecdote does not equal data. But still, it doesn't seem broken at all to me. There are far more things broken about the cleric in my mind (see Turn Undead, just to start)

I could counter by pointing out that in Forgotten Realms, it states Clerics must worship a Deity, as it was stated earlier. And in the PHB it says you can select any two domains.

Just because it is not acknowledged by being a potential for abuse doesn't mean it can't be abused.

The Realms stuff is pure flavor, though - not game mechanics. The reason why you have to pick a deity in the realms isn't because certain combinations of domains were perceived as unbalanced by the designers - it's because in the Realms clerics have to have gods.

And what I'm trying to say is that the designers didn't build domain choice in as a balancing factor - and so the domains are supposed to be designed such that they can combo in any possible pairing. Any "brokenness" in domain combos just points to the general "overpowered" nature of the cleric class.

 

[Rechan]

This is true - anecdote does not equal data. But still, it doesn't seem broken at all to me. There are far more things broken about the cleric in my mind (see Turn Undead, just to start)

Wow. Completely 180 from me. I'd have never thought Turn Undead was a source of brokeness.

The Realms stuff is pure flavor, though - not game mechanics. The reason why you have to pick a deity in the realms isn't because certain combinations of domains were perceived as unbalanced by the designers - it's because in the Realms clerics have to have gods.

So you don't see "Pick any two domains, forget a deity and take a philosophy" as a fluff choice?

 

[WayneLigon]

And how you or them can tell without reading the PHB/DMG?

Spellcasting requires gestures and spoken words. It's impossible to disquise it unless you've been an idiot and invested in the three or four feats nessesary to do it. Using a special power does not. It simply follows as natural that most educated people will know these things, as they are natural and normal parts of their world.

Much like anyone with education will know that normally a fireball encompases roughly a 20' radius, or that clerics can see into men's souls to know who is wicked and who is truly righteous.

 

[WayneLigon]

My point is that it's as if that paragraph simply doesn't exist and nobody has ever played it any other way.

I wonder if the FRCS started folks down the "Deity Only" path and nobody ever thought to play it any other way ever again?

Nope; in all the campaigns I've ever played in - from OD&D onwards - it was natually and normally assumed that clerics got their power directly from the gods and no other sources. I've never known of a campaign to assume otherwise, and seeing such a thing as a 'cleric of no god' in 2E was generally looked at as something somewhat silly. In every single game I've ever played since 3E came out, that paragraph might as well not exist.

 

[jasin]

Ah, thank you for that.

As far as the Friendly Wizard, the Friendly Wizard is expending a 4th level spell slot, which is reducing his effectiveness, whereas the Wand isn't effecting the party's overall capacity. If you wanted to undercut the example, you could say the Wizard uses the wand instead of wasting one of his spells

I would argue quite the opposite: a wizard's daily slot is unused potential if it remains... well, unused, and if we're talking abusing the rules for combat bonues, there's few better things a wizard can do with a 4th-level slot than cast polymorph.

On the other hand, a charge from a 4th-level wand is 420 gp, which does effect the party's overall capacity

Must have been added in the 3.5 PHB. But thank you for helping my point.

What's your point again?

I thought that it was that it's unbalancing to allow clerics free pick of domains regardless of deities, because deities restrict the choice so you can't pick two powerful domains.

Fharlanghn disagrees, since he offers two very powerful domains, possibly the best two.

And I don't think his domains were changed for 3.5.

I was using Magic and War as an example.

An example of picking two very powerful domains by going outside the lists offered by deities. But list offered by the deities offer combinations just as powerful, so going outside the lists is a non-issue.

Again, I'm assuming that the topic is going outside the deities' lists. If the topic is that the cleric is a powerful class, well, no argument there.

There are worse combinations, especially as previously noted, when you consider suppliments.

Or when you don't and when you just pick one of the PHB gods, and take Travel and Luck.

Your mileage may vary, but I'm going to heavily scrutinize a player that just says "I'm going to pick my domains, forget the gods".

Me too, but that's because it shows an aggressive tendency towards powergaming at the expense of other aspects which I might find annoying later, not because the choice itself is problematic mechnically.

If that player said "I really want War and Magic but no deity offers that, could you or I create one that does, or could I come up with a plausible philosophy that would be represented by those two domains?" I'd have absolutely no problem with it, even though the mechanical effect is exactly the same: picking two domains of player's choice regardless of the deities' domain lists.