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New errata posted, stealth changes official

I'll take your colour coding and raise you a fully colour and layout and design matched entry that you can cut out of a printed errata page and paste over the incorrect entry in the relevant book!

Apparently they think that will work for the DM screen, so why not all books?

The errata as-is reminds me of the time that the 1st Ed. Unearthed Arcana was errated in Dragon magazine so you could paste the new verion of things over the top.

Some people have said "just look at how often computer games are patched" or such - well, a book isn't a computer game. I don't want to have to look at the rulebook and then search the errata. And I don't want to have to "pencil in" errata into my book.

There have been too many BIG changes through errata - skill challenges and stealth, for example, and yet i have to look through and replace words or sentences? That sucks.

It sucks too that such massive changes are required so soon. It shows that the playtesting failed. This is not the fault of the playtesters. It is the fault of those who decided on the number of playtesters (not enough), the duration of playtesting (definately not long enough), and the areas of focus for the playtesting.

When a computer game is patched the next time I open the game the patch is in place. A book is NOT a computer game, and when I open my books after this errata is released the changes are not in place.

Duncan
 

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Hodgie

First Post
There have been too many BIG changes through errata - skill challenges and stealth, for example, and yet i have to look through and replace words or sentences? That sucks.

It sucks too that such massive changes are required so soon. It shows that the playtesting failed. This is not the fault of the playtesters. It is the fault of those who decided on the number of playtesters (not enough), the duration of playtesting (definately not long enough), and the areas of focus for the playtesting.

I'll echo this. I'll defend Wizards in a lot of venues, but it wasn't too long ago that people were asking how 3e had three years of playtesting and 4e was to have three months. The answer was that it had "extensive" internal playtesting. It was clear then, and hindsight proves it now, that internal playtesting is inadequate and grossly so. The game was published with glaring omissions which many players found in their very first sessions.

I'll commend Wizards on producing errata (they already sold the books), but the existence of errata is problematic. The comparison to software is poor. When software is updated there is no perpetual inconvenience on the part of the consumer. They adapt and things improve. With a print book errata doesn't actually remedy the problem; it provides an opportunity for a remedy. When the "opportunity" is in a game with a finite set of rules, you should probably accept that opportunity if the game is to remain enjoyable. As such, it is just an inconvenience and a responsible company should be more careful.
 

I haven't played tons of 4e, just a few encounters and thought about it a lot, so perhaps you've found something I haven't.
Well, the games only been out for 2 months, and these rules for a little over a week or so, except for the stuff that just wasn't in the compendium, so nobody has played with any of them tons. But I've played quite a bit since release, including combats on the same maps with both sets of of rules since the the compendium update.

But you mention that rogues should use a combination and I wholeheartedly agree. From what I've seen on the boards people are saying that fights are usually done in less than 10 rounds. Certainly at lower levels a rogue is going to have to do his At-wills often in a combat, whether or not he's stealthy or not. So why not do a few Deft strikes from range, stealthily move to another hidden area 6 squares away with no movement penalty with Fleeting ghost to get a better angle at a new enemy, Deft strike, then when the defender moves into a suitable position charge/move out into a flanking position to get Combat advantage. Then when you move towards the controller in the back use your Encounter to daze him, then next round hit him with sly flourish while you have CA on him.

To perform your role as Striker (doing a lot of damage to a single target), you need to be getting your sneak attack damage on almost all of the attacks you're making, even at low levels. You can do that with deft strike at range sometimes, assuming you have a conveniently located area to get get total concealment and/or superior cover, which is the problem. Without conveniently located total concealment and/or superior cover, you can't get combat advantage from deft strike at range reliably.

You can't move stealthily using Fleeting Ghost unless you are already hidden and have concealment or cover along the entire length of the path you move, or end up in a square that grants you total concealment and/or superior cover (unless you use the reading of Fleeting Ghost that allows you to make a Stealth check as part of the power, which allows you to end up in a square with cover or concealment without necessarily needing cover or concealment on the way to it, though it would be helpful).

Now, you're moving into a flanking position, which is fine, as long as your party has cleared out all the enemies not locked down by the defender. Otherwise, you're the prime target for any enemy not locked onto the defender (such as the artillery) and the guy you just hit (and/or other monsters locked onto the defender) is providing flanking on you for any and all lurking skulks or skirmishers running around.

Now, if you waited all this time to go after the Artillery (the monster version of controller generally, though you might also be out hunting down skulks and skirmishers to keep them from putting too bad a hurting on the fighter or jumping on your controller), by the time you get to him the artillery has unloaded all kinds of status effects on your party (and most likely you, and it's hard to go after him after you just sucked up a gluepot or stink bomb) and at that point, why bother, since the whole party is either dead/immobilized, or charging past you to do it themselves.

The way you played it isn't fighting like a rogue, it is fighting like a fighter. Attack what's closest to you, let everything come up to you, then move forward when everything around you is down. Forcing the rogue to do that makes it just a fragile, second-rate fighter. It doesn't perform like a Rogue should, engaging the enemies with which it has a favorable matchup while avoiding those that are unfavorable (until circumstances change and they can re-engage with an advantage).

If you need to take out the artillery as a Rogue, what you should be trying for is something like (using what I gleaned of the situation you described and the reading of Fleeting Ghost to allow a Stealth check):

Round One: Piercing Strike with shuriken or dagger on a target you can hit, hopefully getting combat advantage from First Strike on something that isn't a minion to soften it up for the defender. Follow with a move to a place with cover and/or concealment (or better) and a Stealth check using Fleeting Ghost. Or, double move, making two stealth checks, to close on the artillery. Make a perception check as a minor action if you have one left (shuriken or dagger or whatever was readied or you have Quick Draw if you made an attack) to locate any hidden skulks, skirmishers or artillery. Consider making some sort of attack via an action point, but this is likely too early, as you'll be left exposed and almost certainly need at least two attacks to do your job, and you'll want to be hidden to avoid getting pummeled.

Round Two: Attack the artillery if you can, gaining combat advantage from being hidden, then move and hide using Fleeting Ghost. Consider using an action point to make another attack if you have a power that has a chance of making a kill this round, but remember that doing so will leave you exposed well away from the rest of the group, so be careful. Again, burn a minor action if you've got it to look for an enemy.

Round Three: Make your second attack on the artillery, with combat advantage from being hidden. If it hits, this should kill most artillery at low levels, though you may need to run to a third attack on something particularly tough or if you roll poorly. Again, burn a minor action if you've got it to look for an enemy. Regardless, move and hide using Fleeting Ghost.

Round Four: If you have to, attack again. Otherwise, your last move should have you headed back to the group. Get back to the group to heal up and/or help out. Focus on cleaning up skirmishers/skulks or look at flanking the toughest thing the fighter is facing so you can hit it with something like torturous strike or something that will give it a debilitating condition.

If on any of the rounds you blow your Stealth check, odds are you're going to be hammered by the Artillery and anything else that is around. You also might take some damage just because it isn't hard to guess where you're at when you move and hide after attacking, since you aren't hidden during the move, so bad luck can put you in the same banged-up boat as failing. Regardless, if you take a big chunk of damage, break off your attempt on the artillery and fall back to the group if you can (getting hidden as soon as possible to facilitate getting back to healing). If you get hit with an immobilizing status effect, pray. Even if it takes you three or four rounds to get the kill or you fail, if you've been hidden between attacks, the artillery has probably wasted shots trying to hit you.

I don't see what's so bad about sneaking around a bit to flank enemies and get into good position and then use all your rogue bad of tricks.

Because standing in one place beating on something is fighting like a fighter. And if you want to do that, and can make it work, or enjoy it even if it doesn't really work, that's fine, but you shouldn't have to play a rogue that fights like a fighter.

I've seen the rogue in our campaign use Sly Flourish over and over. My character used his at-wills over and over. That's what ya do.
Tellerve

If you really like that and the player playing the rogue is satisfied with playing that way, I'm glad you enjoy it, but having played and watched rogues that moved around the battlefield using all of their abilities and skills, and attacked using a variety of weapons and powers on a variety of targets, that feels like a big step back.

It definitely doesn't feel like:

"Rogues are cunning and elusive adversaries. Rogues slip into and out of shadows on a whim, pass anywhere on the field of battle without fear of reprisal, and appear suddenly only to drive home a lethal blade."
 

Ravingdork

Explorer
Here's a few more errata I'd like to see:
Zombie minion errated to either live up to being lvl 3 or downgraded to lvl 1.

It's been changed as evidenced by the D&Di Encounter Generator. In that program it is listed as a Level 1 Minion. Actual Errata is probably not far off. ;)

I'm not sure about the other monsters you listed, but you can check the generator to see if any others were changed as well. :)
 

eamon

Explorer
I'll commend Wizards on producing errata (they already sold the books), but the existence of errata is problematic. The comparison to software is poor. When software is updated there is no perpetual inconvenience on the part of the consumer. They adapt and things improve. With a print book errata doesn't actually remedy the problem; it provides an opportunity for a remedy.
I compared D&D to software not because errata are comparable to updates, but because errata are comparably necessarily. Obviously, errata are much less handy, which is why wizards is almost sure to release an updated version of the rulebooks sometime. Compare it to academic textbooks, which are frequently riddled with errors. Sometimes these are errors are posted online, and if it's a successful book, sometimes a new edition comes out.

D&D is harder to get right. Whereas errors in academic textbooks are frequently real errors a suitably knowledgeable person can identify, the things being errata'd are not so clearcut.

The point? It's unrealistic to expect perfection. It's not handy, but eternal playtesting would not have fixed all these issues. I'm positively enthused by the rate and purpose of the (inevitably necessary) errata. Sure, I hope future books will need fewer: I expect they will need fewer, as 4e becomes more mature and well-understood. But I'm not surprised nor disappointed by the amount of problems in 4e (an entirely new system) on release. And frankly, when it comes to balance, 4e pre-errata is still less problematic than 3e after years of tweaking.
 

LightPhoenix

First Post
So using the new rules for Stealth,

If a rogue comes out of cover using Deft Strike because he can move 2 squares before attacking he still gets his Sneak Attack, right? This would be due to keeping Stealth until the action is completed.

Does that make sense or am I reading it wrong?

You are reading it right. You are considered hidden until the end of your attack - the movement from Deft Strike is part of the attack.
 


Tellerve

Registered User
I agree with your breakdown, although you have to have a DM set up a battlefield to allow that. Some dungeons won't allow for that kind of movement. And if you do have say spots of cover, and as you pointed out, creatures would see you move to that point and get hidden. I think intelligent creatures would go investigate that area with a move action, get LOS, and then they could attack you.

That's why I was favoring flanking when early on you don't have the ability to stay hidden while moving. And while you quoted flavor text that I agree is a great way to play a rogue, I'll go ahead and quote this for you.

Role: Striker. You dart in to attack, do massive damage,
and then retreat to safety. You do best when teamed
with a defender to flank enemies.

So, while you think that is playing a fighter, Wizards sees it as a fine example of a rogue striker hitting the creature where it hurts easily from round to round. Will that make you a target? Sure, as would being seen hiding and trying to flank.

I think we are arguing the same point actually, as I have tended to agree with you, except I don't see as big an issue with flanking as you appear to for their role as a striker.

In any case, the other question that this discussion has brought up to me is how Fleeting Ghost, Chameleon and Shadow Stride. To me the two beginning ones essentially become Shadow Stride. At first you can move with no penalty to the move action. I'm not sure why it says to make a stealth check, but it was before the revised stealth rules. In the revised rules you make one if you move more than 2 spaces. This allows you to move your 6, or 5, or 7 and not take the -5 to your check. But you need to be hidden (ie have concealment/cover) the whole time. Some would/and do argue opposite that. Chameleon allows you to move from hidden to another place of cover through places that don't have cover/concelament which would normally break your Hidden status. However, as soon that hidden status would go away you get a stealth check and as long as you make it and get to cover/concealment you're still hidden. Finally Shadow Stride just combines them so you can change the earlier utilities for something else as it allows full movement while hidden to a place of cover/concealment through non-concealed/covered areas. That's when a rogue would really shine with the sneaky popin' in and out and sniping around the battlefield.

cheers,

Tellerve
 

I agree with your breakdown, although you have to have a DM set up a battlefield to allow that. Some dungeons won't allow for that kind of movement. And if you do have say spots of cover, and as you pointed out, creatures would see you move to that point and get hidden. I think intelligent creatures would go investigate that area with a move action, get LOS, and then they could attack you.

This highlights the big difference between being able to make a check via Fleeting Ghost which allows Cover and/or Concealment and needing Superior Cover and/or Total Concealment. The DM has to do a lot more work to set up a map that provides Superior Cover and/or Total Concealment with patches of concealment between them, or things that provide Total Concealment and/or Superior cover to multiple areas on the battlefield located closely enough that you can move between them. Cover and Concealment however are easy to put into a map in patches, an entire area of lightly forested terrain or a shadowy area on the map. Things can come and hunt for you, but they won't have the ability to just, say come around the corner or look behind the tipped-over table and see you because your entire source of Superior Cover/Total Concealment was an object that provided protection from line of sight. So in a patch of cover or concealment, you'll be attackable, but hard to hit; as opposed to being behind a corner, and pretty much impossible to hit, unless the creature can move up to you. And like you said, all maps won't have appropriate Cover/Concealment and there will be times you can't do it, but they'll be nowhere near as rare as maps with appropriate Superior Cover/Total Concealment.


That's why I was favoring flanking when early on you don't have the ability to stay hidden while moving. And while you quoted flavor text that I agree is a great way to play a rogue, I'll go ahead and quote this for you.

Role: Striker. You dart in to attack, do massive damage,
and then retreat to safety. You do best when teamed
with a defender to flank enemies.

So, while you think that is playing a fighter, Wizards sees it as a fine example of a rogue striker hitting the creature where it hurts easily from round to round. Will that make you a target? Sure, as would being seen hiding and trying to flank.

Note that's dart in and retreat to safety, which coincides exactly with what I described, as opposed getting into a flanking position and staying there and hitting over and over while things attack you. You don't hide to try to flank, you hide to gain combat advantage and/or avoid being attacked. You flank when it is tactically sound to do so, not all the time, sucking up damage.

That's not to say that there won't be times that you do latch onto something and pound away at it, or even times when you try to take a little damage off another character, but you shouldn't be limited to that and shuffling back and froth from behind a corner deft striking over and over. There will even be times when you can't hide or flank or get off an appropriate power, and are reduced to plinking for a round or two until the situation improves.

I think we are arguing the same point actually, as I have tended to agree with you, except I don't see as big an issue with flanking as you appear to for their role as a striker.

I don't have an issue with flanking, I have an issue with rogues being reduced to doing nothing but flanking or deft striking back and forth from behind a corner. But, I do think we are headed somewhat in the same direction.

In any case, the other question that this discussion has brought up to me is how Fleeting Ghost, Chameleon and Shadow Stride. To me the two beginning ones essentially become Shadow Stride. At first you can move with no penalty to the move action. I'm not sure why it says to make a stealth check, but it was before the revised stealth rules. In the revised rules you make one if you move more than 2 spaces.

In both the old and revised rules you made a Stealth Check to hide, and took a -5 penalty to if you moved more than 2 squares (you also need to make a check to remain hidden if you move more than 2 squares after you're already hidden in the new rules, as you said). The big change was requiring Total Concealment/Superior Cover rather than Concealment/Cover to hide using the Stealth skill alone (without a power or other skill granting you the ability to hide).

This allows you to move your 6, or 5, or 7 and not take the -5 to your check. But you need to be hidden (ie have concealment/cover) the whole time.

Not precisely. To hide, you need to end your move in a square that provides Total Concealment or Superior Cover from the enemies you're hiding from, so you could move in the open, then hide. If you are already hidden, you could move to a square of cover or concealment, if you had a series of squares providing Cover and/or Concealment along your path. A literal reading of Fleeting Ghost allows making a check as part of using the power. As a practical matter, because of the new rules on remaining hidden, you can only gain the benefit of making that a check via Fleeting Ghost if you do so in a square that provides some measure of Cover and Concealment. Even with Fleeting Ghost allowing you to make a check, without Shadow Stride, you would need to be already hidden, and have cover and concealment along your path to avoid being seen prior to the end of your move.

Some would/and do argue opposite that. Chameleon allows you to move from hidden to another place of cover through places that don't have cover/concelament which would normally break your Hidden status. However, as soon that hidden status would go away you get a stealth check and as long as you make it and get to cover/concealment you're still hidden.

Chameleon is an Immediate Interrupt. You can't take an Immediate action on your turn. Chameleon would come into play in situations like you are hidden behind a corner or upended table or something and something moves and gains line of sight.


Finally Shadow Stride just combines them so you can change the earlier utilities for something else as it allows full movement while hidden to a place of cover/concealment through non-concealed/covered areas. That's when a rogue would really shine with the sneaky popin' in and out and sniping around the battlefield.

Shadow Stride allows you to remain hidden while moving across areas in which you would normally not remain hidden on your turn. This is a significant benefit on its own, as you can hide, then next round (or in the same round if you double move), end up a good distance away from your last known location without anything having any idea where you are.

The stealth-related powers chain together, they don't replace each other. Utilities are useful throughout the length of the game. All of the stealth-related powers (including those not previously mentioned, Hide in Plain Sight and Hide from the Light) except Fleeting Ghost require you already be hidden to use. If Fleeting Ghost doesn't provide an easier entry point to being hidden (Cover/Concealment) than the really hard to get in a useful, non-cheesy way Total Concealment/Superior Cover (Let's walk around with a blanket tied to a 10' pole held in front of the Rogue!), the stealth-related powers aren't worth bothering with.

The literal interpretation of Fleeting Ghost lets Rogues play like Rogues and makes the Stealth-related powers worthwhile.

Note that I'm not happy with just that. My original post expressed my disappointment that they didn't do further Updates/FAQ on Fleeting Ghost, but really, I think Updates should have been done on all the classes and powers relating to Stealth. The literal reading of Fleeting Ghost for example, allows a Warlock to hide all the time via Fell Step by multiclassing into Rogue and taking the power (at a cost of 3 feats). And really, Stealth is so entertwined into the Rogue class, that an easier entry point to becoming hidden should be via a new class ability posessed by all Rogues (as a class ability, it also prevents issues with multiclassing), something like:

Creepy Crawler: Rogues are exceptionally stealthy. A Rogue may treat areas granting cover as granting total cover and areas granting concealment as granting total concealment to meet the requirements to make a Stealth check. A Rogue may not use another creature to hide or remain hidden.
 
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jeffh

Adventurer
@Jaelis:

Not only Shadow Wasp Strike, but a couple other cases where a higher-level power was previously strictly worse than a lower level one as well.
 

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