New haste on WotC website!

[Stalker0]

My one problem with the new spell is will the effect on multiple people still be too powerful. If you consider a party of fighter/cleric/wiz/rogue (fairly typical), your going to have the fighter and cleric getting an extra attack, the rgoue might be fireing an extra arrow from the back, and may be getting an additional sneak attack.

That's a lot for one spell, anyone agree?

Overall though, I like the new haste a lot.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

SPELL DESCRIPTION

When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can't use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)

Some comments:

This is great for those carrying melee weapons or bows (I would rule a bow is a weapon being held, if someone had a bow out.)
Thus, the wizard or sorcerer can, as in 2nd Edition, once more empower all the fighters, rangers, paladins, barbarians, and even clerics, druids, and rogues in the party.
It is also good for spellswords.

SPELL DESCRIPTION

A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.

Some comments:

Again, this is great for fighters, rangers, paladins, barbarians, and even clerics, druids and rogues.
It is also good for spellswords.

SPELL DESCRIPTION

All of the hasted creature's modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject's normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for increased speed.

Some more comments:

What we have here is the 3rd Edition equivalent of a weakened 2nd Edition Haste spell, minus the penalties.
That is, your attacks do not double, but instead you gain one extra attack.
Also, you do not age one year each time the spell is cast on you.

This is all fine and well, if you are playing a wizard or sorcerer who likes to have fighters, paladins, rangers, barbarians, clerics, druids, rogues, and spellswords fight for him or her.
Which is to say, this Haste is fine for a wizard or sorcerer who prefers to let others do the fighting for him or her (which is the case for many wizards and sorcerers.)

Of course, if the wizard or sorcerer is alone, or actually wants to fight, this spell is useless.
You do realize that, don't you?

A + 1 bonus to attacks, AC, and reflex saves are rather paltry rewards for the casting of a 3rd level spell (paltry, when you can FIREBALL the enemy instead.)
Not to mention, useless. If an enemy closes with your wizard or sorcerer, those bonuses are insignificant. Your wizard or sorcerer is likely to have too low a BAB and AC for a + 1 to make much of a difference.

The spell gives fighting types an edge. But it does not give spellcasters much of anything.
An extra attack, but not an extra spell.

If your wizard is into RUNNING, this spell is quite useful.
If your wizard takes this spell for memorization, and not effective spells like Fireball, running away will probably be his or her fate, too.

In other words, this spell - this version of Haste - is not for the fighting wizard (who is not a spellsword, but IS a straight wizard who also wishes to fight.)

- - -

I say, there should be two versions of Haste.
There should be the one now being discarded, from 3.0. That version of Haste for fighting wizards and sorcerers.
The second one being this new spell, in 3.5. For the wizard who wants to stand back and turn the fighting men and women of the party into tanks.

But if this new version will be the only Haste available officially, I must state that I do not care for it.
Just my opinion only.

Edena_of_Neith

 

[two]

(giggling)

SimonMoon5 --

The modification of a single 3rd level spell turns mighty and powerful wizards into characters that are (comparatively) "sucky in combat" and "can't do squat in combat?"

Quoting you.

(giggles)

If your assertion is correct, that wizards are now completely useless in combat,

1) What might that indicate, to you, about the previous version of the 3rd level spell in question?
2) Why should one 3rd level spell make that much difference?
3) What suggestions do you have to "make wizards combat effective" again besides, well, going back to the same old 3rd level spell.

I DID mention this is a 3rd level spell under discussion, right?

(giggles)


Never knew just how unstable some core class balance issues were until now. Beware the power of a modified 3rd level spell!

 

[Caliban]

I think the greatest use of the 3.5 Haste will be to counter the Slow spell, since it can now affect multiple targets.

Now that wizards can't get 2 spells a round with Haste, using Slow to make sure that you opponents can't get multiple attacks is a much stronger tactic.

If Slow becomes more prevalent (and I think it will), then that will make the nw Haste a better spell, just because it's an effective counter to Slow.

 

[Someone]

Notice that the bonus to AC is a dodge bonus. I believe no spell or magic item could grant a dodge bonus; it has obviously changed in 3r.

 

[Grog]

One other thing I just thought of - if the new Haste only gives you one extra attack regardless of how many weapons you're wielding, that tilts the playing field even more in favor of two-handed weapons over dual wielding. (It was already drastically tilted that way to begin with, of course, but that's another thread.)

 

[Caliban]

One other thing I just thought of - if the new Haste only gives you one extra attack regardless of how many weapons you're wielding, that tilts the playing field even more in favor of two-handed weapons over dual wielding. (It was already drastically tilted that way to begin with, of course, but that's another thread.)

That's being mitigated somewhat by the removal of the ambidexterity feat.

 

[Storm Raven]

My one problem with the new spell is will the effect on multiple people still be too powerful. If you consider a party of fighter/cleric/wiz/rogue (fairly typical), your going to have the fighter and cleric getting an extra attack, the rgoue might be fireing an extra arrow from the back, and may be getting an additional sneak attack.

Think of the possible synergies with the Summon Monster spells.

 

[Bauglir]

Re:Simonmoon5's assertion that new haste takes away wizards/sorcerers' combat ability, I agree.. to a certain degree.

(Please read to the end before replying - I'm building up to a point )

Take a fireball - 35 damage on average (by a level 10 caster)
Now take a level 10 fighter

22 str (16 +2 level adds + 4 belt)
+2 Icy Greatsword
Weapon Focus, Spec

Attack bonus with that sword: 10 + 6(str) + 1(foc) + 2(sword) = +19/+14

Avg damage =[ 7(2d6) + 9(str) + 2(enh) + 3.5(Icy) + 2(spec)] * 1.1(crit chance) = 25.85 damage

To hit AC 25 (arbitrary) he has a 75%, 50% chance, so his total average damage that round will be 32.3125 damage.

So the wizard does on average less than 3 points more damage than the fighter.

Now I know single opponents favour the fighter etc etc, and I know we could go back and forward with different scenarios for a while, and talk about how the wizard is great vs armies of weak opponents, but the point I'm trying to bring here is that, in a typical dungeon style encounter (low numbers of enemies) the wizard's damage does not far outstrip that of the fighter, despite his comparitive physical vulnerabilities, and that's not even taking into account spell resistance, elemental resistance, and of course the problems with area of effect spells (while they can reap higher rewards by striking multiple targets, they can also be rendered inviable by charging party members)

But why should it? After all the wizard has other options, of course. Therein lies the problem. If a player wants to make a wizard that can make a direct impact on combat (not everyone enjoys playing the support role) then the option of damage dealer is no longer of any great appeal. So what does that leave? Save or die spells of course.

Save or die spells in 3e are made more powerful by the 'save twice or die' effect that haste can produce, however ime players tend to use them sparingly, because they know they are cheesy, and they know they can be used against them, and most importantly, because they have other viable options.

 

[two]

Must restate the obvious

If changing a 3rd level spell makes such a difference --

That spell by definition was grossly overpowered.

(and needed an overhaul)

Duh.

You could entirely remove any other 3rd level spell in the game and not have people saying "the class is now combat-enfeebled."

Repeat: the spell was grossly overpowered.

If you are used to playing wizards with a grossly overpowered spell, and it's modified, it might seem like the world is collapsing around your head. It's not. Breathe.

It just means that you might have to change tactics, and the wizardly blasters won't be, by default, the uber damage machines they once were. Rejoice! It's a good thing!

Do other stuff! And if you want, you can STILL blast away -- just not as fast and furiously as before.

Rejoice!