New hybrid rules: hybrid talent feat just once?

[cdrcjsn]

Yeah, I will have to look into balance. Like I said - I understand the balance reasons, but it's an option I want open. I'll be looking into making it balanced. I might have to break it into several feats...

Coming up with specific feats for options would be better balanced than simply allowing the feat to be taken multiple times.

As for striker damage? Multiclassing DOES gets a full version, except it's only usable once per encounter. I think a feat cost would be acceptable to upgrade from "only in-class" to full. I mean, it'd take 6-9 feats for a hybrid character to get full features of both classes. That's a significant chunk right there.

You don't need 6-9 feats to get the best class features of any class. 2-3 more like it, and for some classes (like Wizard) not even that. If you allow someone to take the hybrid feat multiple times, then it makes the base classes useless. Why play a Wizard for example when a Swordmage/Wizard will be better every time?

Of course, this is coming from the guy who entirely redesigned multiclassing for his games. I'm more or less trying to keep hybrid consistent with my house rules (in that, if you invest enough in it, you'll essentially be a full member of two classes. It takes a lot of your character resources, but it can be done).

I'd suggest playing with the rules as given first just to try them out. There are some combos out there that can be abused quite easily if not reined in (the AC of the swordmage/avenger for example). Likewise there are some powerful interactions with paragon class features that might not be apparent at first.

 

[Nifft]

I'd suggest playing with the rules as given first just to try them out.

IMHO the rules-as-written are a bit underpowered for over half the viable combinations (e.g. Paladin/Warlock).

There are some combos out there that can be abused quite easily if not reined in (the AC of the swordmage/avenger for example).

In that specific case -- and in the case of stacking up class-based bonuses in general -- I'd suggest that the fix is to make the bonuses named ("Class Bonus to AC").

With that fix in, perhaps allow Hybrid Talent to be taken once at Heroic, a second time at Paragon, and a third time at Epic.

Cheers, -- N

 

[malcolm_n]

Will Divine Power have any Hybrid class options? Given that PH3 won't be out for a while...

I'm betting they'll either include the hybrid information with the rest in PH3 or in the next Divine Power book. The current hybrid ranger includes info about beast mastery

 

[MrMyth]

Yeah, I will have to look into balance. Like I said - I understand the balance reasons, but it's an option I want open. I'll be looking into making it balanced. I might have to break it into several feats...

As for striker damage? Multiclassing DOES gets a full version, except it's only usable once per encounter. I think a feat cost would be acceptable to upgrade from "only in-class" to full. I mean, it'd take 6-9 feats for a hybrid character to get full features of both classes. That's a significant chunk right there.

Of course, this is coming from the guy who entirely redesigned multiclassing for his games. I'm more or less trying to keep hybrid consistent with my house rules (in that, if you invest enough in it, you'll essentially be a full member of two classes. It takes a lot of your character resources, but it can be done).

As others mentioned, be very careful with the balance here. The thing to keep in mind is that nearly every single major class feature tends to be more powerful than what a single feat can get you. That's ok when you can only spend it once, and usually must make a hard choice in doing so - once you can pick the feat up even 4 times or so, you can cherry pick all the strongest class abilities from two seperate classes, and be significantly more powerful than a normal character.

It's easy to say that 6-9 feats is a heavy investment - but a character doesn't need to invest in every feature to get the most powerful options. That only takes 3-4 feats. Especially given Hybrid Talent sometimes (with the Armor feats) encapsulates several feats on its own.

 

[doggywoggy]

q) what logical sense does it make to have no prereqs AT ALL to regain Plate prof, but if I wanted to take those feats piecemeal I'd have to pump up my CON? Why not just wave away the prereqs for armor + shield feats which you could take all at once if you simply had a spare hybrid talent to use?

That would make too much sense, which is probably why we won't see it happening.

 

[rainsinger]

In regards to striker balance (particularly warlock, ranger and rogue with their bonus damage) - I played a ranger/rogue (4th level) last weekend for a pretty long session, and I was putting out anywhere from 20-50 damage a turn (with just at-wills, yeesh - riposte strike and then twin strike is ridiculous).

Needless to say, if I could stack sneak attack and quarry, it would be flat out silly. That part of the hybrid balancing I (hate to admit this) completely agree with. I do think that the paragon drop for access to more talents is flat out terrible and needs to be rethought though. IMO, I think that there should be a heroic, paragon and epic tier version of the hybrid talent feat and it should not require anything more than getting to those levels. I put together 6 characters this way and compared them to standard single class characters of the same level with the same gear and as many of the same power choices as possible, and the balance seemed fine overall. Obviously some combinations end up considerably stronger than others, but even then you're still giving up a pretty big chunk of potential abilities to get good "combo" setups.

As someone said to me this weekend though, it's going to be hard to imagine a ton of people NOT using hybrids after the full rules are out... the one thing 4th edition lacked in comparison to older editions is that feeling of really customizing your character, hybrid allows a bit more of that.

 

[invokethehojo]

You know there are still times when hybrid isn't better then multiclass.

For instance, take a half-elf fighter multiclass wizard (scorching burst) with dilletante (scorching burst) and at paragon take the half-elf feat which gives you your dilletante power as an at will (i forget it's name).

If you take your multiclass feats or paragon paths to get burst or blast powers (not to mention scorching burst at will) you can mark every guy in every burst you cast regardless of whether you hit them or not (fighter mark reads this way). I made this build at level 4 but never played him, but I though it would be a great build, a tempest fighter that does lots of damage in melee or can do decent damage at rang to multiple guys and hinder their attacks.

With hybrid this doesn't work though.

 

[Cwheeler]

Considering HRing to either allow two hybrid talent feats or 2/tier... I can't see it getting too unbalanced. Should help to make some interesting characters as well.

I'm also wondering if it's possible to cut the sorcerer's hybrid talent feat into two feats. I'll have a look at that in the morning.