New Legend and Lore: Getting the Most out of the Rules

Crazy Jerome

First Post
Oh, and every intro book should include the play-script style "example of play." I never tire of reading those.

If the book is the size of the PHB, then it should include multiple examples of play, some of considerable length, showing different aspects of play, and reflecting different play preferences by the participants (by group and individual). Then include sidebars commenting on the differences and why they are there.
 

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howandwhy99

Adventurer
PHB may use a rule-oriented tone but Monster Manual needs to be evocative.

MM14E was a huge letdown for me. I love to flip over 1E, 2E and 3E monster manuals (in special 2E)... but first 4E's looked like some color TV manual. I think Wotc perceived it was a mistake and tone was largely improved on their second and third MM.

DMG must also be evocative and full of ideas and hooks (in that 4E DMG II was excellent).

Well, I'm suspect... in fact I could live wil all D&D books written like Planescape and rules to be written on some online D&D wiki :p

I agree with Avin. Mechanics are for technical writers and clarity is paramount to demonstrating the quality and brainpower behind the rules design.

Flavor or story content however, that's a whole other ballpark. Now you want employees who can deliver with evocative creative writing.

Doing both well is very hard, but I think some of the newer indie games manage this better than larger lines. For me, doing both well means allowing the game's focus to trace through the entirety of a work, from the mechanical configurations, to the content descriptions, to the visual arts, to the packaging.

Looking at the start of the hobby I can see the desperate need for good technical writing has slowly changed to become the standard for judging quality game design. Unfortunately, so much of the personalized and artistic flair inherent in hundreds of earlier games, even at times bordering on the rococo, has diminished. I don't know if this is embarrassment or a codifying of standards or simply having a shorter leash. But I would suggest content is still king and quality artistry on the story end of things will benefit publishers just as much as the new technical merit has.

EDIT:
Crazy Jerome said:
Well, that's another reason for not writing core rules in a style.
There is no "non-styled" writing style.
 
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Crazy Jerome

First Post
There is no "non-styled" writing style.

Sorry, I meant no artistic writing style. Technical writing can be done more or less dry, within its own parameters, but to cross over into something meant to be evocative is to leave the technical style, at least somewhat.

I'd like to know an Indie game author that you think has managed the marriage.
 

howandwhy99

Adventurer
I'd like to know an Indie game author that you think has managed the marriage.
Off the top of my head I was thinking of the ones which won the Ennies last summer. But then Dresden Files comes from a popular comic, so it isn't necessarily the game authors who were doing the inspiring necessarily for every buyer. As far as contemporary measures of good creative writing though, both Evil Hat and Cubicle 7 have quality writers and editors. Legends of Anglerre is another example for you.

Of course, if you want something you can download now, check out Old School Hack. It may not be my game, but it is clear while being conversational and the style is purposeful throughout every aspect of the work.

No marriage is perfect, but I do believe both sides should attempt to relate to the other.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Ideally, the parts of the book that are supposed to provide you with ideas should be presented with evocative text and tons of art. These would be the setting and overall game play description, races, classes, equipment, part of the combat section (a sample combat, referencing all the of the major components of the rules), and skills/non-combat chapter (with an example in play of each skill use).

Powers and spells should be have a little evocative text, and then precise rules for how to use the ability in play. I feel a failing of 4e was the paucity of the evocative text for powers. (And yes, I'm aware of the reskinning issue, but I don't think pure rules text is the best way to illustrate bog-standard D&D. A D&D rule book should first and foremost be evocative of the D&D genre.)

Rules text within description text should ALWAYS be in a side bar. Don't mix rules within the description (a failing, I again feel, of many pre-4e spells). Fun sidebars within the rules text, such as designer comments, are not unappreciated, however.
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
....Of course, if you want something you can download now, check out Old School Hack. It may not be my game, but it is clear while being conversational and the style is purposeful throughout every aspect of the work.

No marriage is perfect, but I do believe both sides should attempt to relate to the other.

Thanks. I'll have to look at some of those. Also, I don't mind a style that leans more towards conversational than formal. I think it is definitely possible to do good conversational technical writing. (I prefer conversational narrative history to the more formal versions, too.) For example, I think Mouse Guard is conversational and clear technical writing, but not terribly evocative writing. (Some of the ideas, and certainly the presentation sides of the books are definitely evocative. But not the rules.)
 

howandwhy99

Adventurer
Here are some examples of text in the AD&D DMG, not exactly a paragon of clear language it does have that inimitable Gygaxian style which lends itself to imagining the play of the game.
Eye of Vecna: Seldom is the name of Vecna spoken except in hushed voice, and never within hearing of strangers, for legends say that the phantom of this once supreme lich still roams the Material Plane. It is certain that when Vecna finally met his doom, one eye and one hand survived. The Eye of Vecna is said to glow in the same manner as that of a feral creature. It appears to be an agate until it is placed in an empty eye socket of a living character. Once pressed in, it instantly and irrevocably grafts itself to the head, and it cannot be removed or harmed without slaying the character. The alignment of the character immediately becomes neutral evil and may never change. The Eye bestows both infra- and ultravision to its host, and gives the following additional powers/effects:

2 X I, 2 X II, 1 X IV, 1 X V [edit~DM determines the powers unknown to the players at start]

The minor or major powers may be used without fear of harm, but use of the primary power causes a malevolent effect upon the host character.
There are hard and fast rules in there which would probably be codified at the end of the text in a contemporary work. Of course, in my own play this often means the previous text is ignored. But all of the text is setting defining without determining every last detail for the DM. Canon is slight in this case, but tempts the well read player every time they find an agate in game. Plus, almost all of it could be taken as a rumor further defining the world in play.

Jewel of Attacks: This gleaming gem radiates magic and appears to be a valuable item. It is cursed, however, and it brings both 100% more likelihood of encountering wandering monsters and 100% greater likelihood of pursuit when monsters are encountered and the party seeks to evade them by flight. Once picked up, the jewel of attacks will always magically return to its finder (secreting itself in pouch, bag, pack, pocket, etc.) until a remove curse spell or an atonement is cast upon him or her.
This is almost entirely rules text and it is less evocative IMO than the previous. However, the text is almost entirely descriptive. Better yet the item's design promotes a particular situation for those who pick up the jewel. What happens if I use the jewel to pay for goods? Maybe this isn't so bad after all? How long does it take for the players to tie the increase in encounters and pursuit to the gem though? How can they do this anyways? To me this means the item needs a little more design. Perhaps it radiates a sympathy effect that draws nearby wanderers? Perhaps this leads into how it is initially found? What are the effects on fellow PCs in the party? What about walking down a city street? How does it bond with the cursed character to know whom to return to, and how does it do that? These are question I see the DM needing to answer before implementing it in play, but also answers needing to be separate from player knowledge before play too. Does this mean the item is poorly defined or is it enabling the DM by putting him or her in the designer's chair? How does that answer relate to the power slots for the Eye above?

Parleying:

Upon encountering another party, the party with initiative can always elect to attempt some form of communication. This can be a friendly gesture, a throwing down of arms, offering of treasure, or some spoken word or phrase. Just what this effect will be is determinable only by the DM considering the prevailing circumstances. It is safe to say that a group of elves attempting to parley with a red dragon will find their efforts generally unsuccessful unless they also have some obvious advantage which the dragon is aware of. It is common for player characters to attack first, parley afterwards. It is recommended that you devise encounters which penalize such action so as to encourage parleying attempts - which will usually be fruitless, of course!
Wow! Of course. This quote is to illustrate a few ways where conversational writing may cause problems. First, it does contain an example in the text. That's good, but it is also lacking in more defined game rules. The rules for "friendly gestures" aren't nearly as complete as one would want for game play purposes. The quote does suggest the expectation of new players not to parley, but this may also bias a DM in not preparing for it. I think the last sentence would be better if advice were given on how to "penalize" players not parleying, but perhaps that way of thinking won't appeal to every reader? What if we used carrots instead sticks to highlight parleying as an option? For as much as conversation with an intelligent creature occurs in RPGs too, there is little on how to run such a sequence or reference to another place in the rules on to do so. Lastly it suggests a style of play predominantly parley-based be routinely unproductive. That's typically synonymous with unsatisfying, but the reasoning for it isn't explained. This last may be the biggest difficulty when in a conversational tone. It becomes harder to discern between the structure of the game to be engaged and preferences for how players should do so.
 
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Jan van Leyden

Adventurer
The term "rules" is, IMHO, insufficient in this context.

Have a look at the 4e PHB rules on powers. We have six pages to define and explain the concept of powers, but dozens and dozens of pages listing powers. For me, that's six pages of rules and gazillions of pages of data to be processed using the rules. Did anyone actually have a fun time devouring all those powers? I certainly didn't.

I advocate blowing up those six pages to 24, including several examples, and throwing out the data to a different product and medium. One could, e.g., include a character generator in the book which gives you access to all the data. Such a thing could be more intuitive than the current CG, offering an explorer mode to let the user explore different pathways and options without much fuss.
 

Have a look at the 4e PHB rules on powers. We have six pages to define and explain the concept of powers, but dozens and dozens of pages listing powers. For me, that's six pages of rules and gazillions of pages of data to be processed using the rules. Did anyone actually have a fun time devouring all those powers? I certainly didn't.

I always found it strange that people would read through all the powers. Did you read through all the spells in previous editions? I thought you would only look at them if you were selecting a power when you leveled up, were using the power, or were a homebrewer needing a baseline to compare too.


I also think that using text alone to explain the game may be narrow minded. Wouldn't a video series/podcast be a better way (or at least another useful tool) to show how to play the game? That's one thing you should give WOTC credit for doing.
 

Jan van Leyden

Adventurer
I always found it strange that people would read through all the powers. Did you read through all the spells in previous editions? I thought you would only look at them if you were selecting a power when you leveled up, were using the power, or were a homebrewer needing a baseline to compare too.

I was a bit unclear in my post. No, I didn't read all the powers and I didn't read all spells in previous editions. I did read all powers of levels 1-3 in PHB1, though, in order to get a feeling for the differences in the classes.

I also think that using text alone to explain the game may be narrow minded. Wouldn't a video series/podcast be a better way (or at least another useful tool) to show how to play the game? That's one thing you should give WOTC credit for doing.

I agree that straight text shouldn't be the only venue to teach D&D to the uninitiated. Even if the core of our hobby remains the same as it has been 35 years ago, one could use new, modern ways to attract new players.
 

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