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D&D 5E New Players same level as Current Players?

WHat level should newbies start at?

  • Same level as the current players, b/c that's fair!

    Votes: 88 83.0%
  • Start'em at 1st, the current players had to start there!

    Votes: 12 11.3%
  • Start them at first, but give them XP bonus to catch up!

    Votes: 6 5.7%

  • Poll closed .

Pvt. Winslow

Explorer
Saying that it's simpler to just talk to the person starts getting weird though. Maybe the person isn't a talker. Maybe the DM is gruff and not a people person. Maybe Mike won't react well to being singled out and will have hurt feelings. Ooo, what if Mike's got the deadly Mutaba virus, and he's going to become a zombie?

This is fun, what happens next?

Wait, are you seriously saying talking to your players when there's an issue is a bad thing? As for gruff DMs and quiet players, do you play with friends or at organized events? Because I assume if you play with friends, you've interacted with them before so you know how best to approach the subject of their in game actions.

Or should I just wildly make up stuff too because I've run out of rebuttals?
 

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Nytmare

David Jose
I find giving characters in my campaigns tangible in-game rewards not tied to their fundamental metric of power level relative to one another, but instead tied directly to their roleplaying, is a much better agent of positive reinforcement to get them to engage in behaviors desirable to the...roleplaying part of the game. ;)

The first is downright bad DMing, the second is some amateur psychology experiment when you could simply just talk to your player if they aren't contributing.

You guys should talk.
 

Nytmare

David Jose
Wait, are you seriously saying talking to your players when there's an issue is a bad thing? As for gruff DMs and quiet players, do you play with friends or at organized events? Because I assume if you play with friends, you've interacted with them before so you know how best to approach the subject of their in game actions.

Or should I just wildly make up stuff too because I've run out of rebuttals?

No, to quote myself from a different thread "communication is 100% the most important thing, but being able to recognize the best way to communicate with someone is just as important."
 

Pvt. Winslow

Explorer
You guys should talk.

You mean following the advice in the DMs guide about granting land and titles and other boons for playing the game is the same as using small XP bonuses when players contribute in exactly the ways you think they should are even remotely the same?

Maybe we should talk, to compare fun stories of gaming.
 


Nytmare

David Jose
Which means we completely agree, since I already assumed you knew how to talk to your own gaming friends.

Why the need to make my suggestion of talking to your friend sound ridiculous then by throwing in zombie crap?

Because trying to run me through the ringer by accusing me of doing something and then roelplaying out a hypothetical situation to an imaginary scenario as proof to one side or the other of what you're trying to force into an argument is ridiculous.
 

Pvt. Winslow

Explorer
Because trying to run me through the ringer by accusing me of doing something and then roelplaying out a hypothetical situation to an imaginary scenario as proof to one side or the other of what you're trying to force into an argument is ridiculous.

You started this dialogue by trying to talk for another poster, then hardly adding in your own interpretations of the topic. Now, when I directly ask you questions and we have a back and forth, suddenly I'm running you through the ringer?
 

Nytmare

David Jose
You started this dialogue by trying to talk for another poster, then hardly adding in your own interpretations of the topic. Now, when I directly ask you questions and we have a back and forth, suddenly I'm running you through the ringer?

Ah, my bad, I thought you were trying to insult me when you said I was either a bad DM or an amateur psychologist because someone else said that they thought that a milestone game might reward a player for doing nothing and then over four pages at least three people took it to mean at least three different things including "those other people" are interested in only combat, "those other people" claim to be interested in non-combat, (and for some reason) that one or more people involved is withholding XP from their players to punish them.

It's kind of hard for me to keep up with all the curve balls, my mistake.
 

Pvt. Winslow

Explorer
Ah, my bad, I thought you were trying to insult me when you said I was either a bad DM or an amateur psychologist because someone else said that they thought that a milestone game might reward a player for doing nothing and then over four pages at least three people took it to mean at least three different things including "those other people" are interested in only combat, "those other people" claim to be interested in non-combat, (and for some reason) that one or more people involved is withholding XP from their players to punish them.

It's kind of hard for me to keep up with all the curve balls, my mistake.

I think that any time playstyle differences come up, things tend to get a little murky. Often people represent their style more strongly than they actually run it, because discussions have a tendency of polarizing people as "us vs. Them" like you said earlier. I'm guilty of that and you rightly called me on my wording previously.

My stance is still that there's nothing wrong with milestone levelling. And this as someone who runs games using both. I generally do milestone for more plot driven games, and XP for sandbox games. They both have their places and benefits. I've just never viewed handing out bonus XP for 'good rp' or to reinforce behaviour as a good idea.

Now I hope I didn't misjudge your post, as I assume you were sincere and not sarcastic.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Actually, yes. I most assuredly can frame it such that levels are not, in fact, rewards. When you go the route of ignoring XP rewards, and go for alternative rewards, levels quite explicitly become nothing more or less than a metric of the relative power level of the PCs compared to the rest of the campaign world.
However, and to me just about as important, levels are also a measure (one of many) of the PCs compared to each other.
You are removing rewarding players with XP from the equation entirely, hence you are by definition removing leveling up as a reward entirely. Levels become a metric, not a reward; there's a significant difference.
But when they're a metric comparing PCs they also become a reward...again, one of many as you so well point out...

Instead rewards are, in my campaigns at least (as I posted previously in the thread), much more tangible in terms of their impact and immersion within the game world itself.

You don't get to have a castle in the game world unless you earn it.
You don't get titles unless you earn them.
You don't get to command an army.
You won't have as many magic items (yes, you'll get a baseline of wealth with which you can purchase items, but that's it).
You won't have as many spells in your spellbook, if you are a wizard.
You won't have any favors with powerful NPCs.
You won't have a license to kill (in the literal sense) in this country.
...here.

But your level? Your raw mechanical baseline? Yeah, you're all on even footing there, because it's been entirely removed from the reward structure. Rather than worrying about what can often be a complicated balancing act of rewarding XP for killing things in combat versus fair rewards for characters who simply don't engage in nearly as much combat, you run under the baseline assumption that everyone in the campaign is engaging in activities they are gaining experience from, maturing because of.
However, whether combat or not I want to recognize the characters who participate rather than stand back or stay at the inn. That's where xp come in.

You don't worry about rewarding XP for good diplomacy, instead someone gets a favor, a title, a trusted contact in some organization.
You don't worry about rewarding XP for successfully breaking into an evil wizard's tower without getting caught, you actually gain a tangible, physical reward no one else in the party gets, because they didn't join you in taking the risk.
You don't worry about rewarding XP in combat being by far the most common time to gain XP. Each combat will have its own rewards, or sometimes (and I know this is likely to make some shudder), a given fight will have no rewards at all. Engaging the random 1d4 griffons that happen to commonly be in the area not only didn't give you any rewards for killing animals that are part of the natural order, if you persist in such activities too much you might upset the natural order. The people that just killed a pack of alpha predators, rather than just scaring them off, likely did more damage than they might think to the local ecology. The local druid might not be too happy about that.
All good, but nothing at all says xp can't go on top of all that. The characters involved in the diplomacy get xp for it; the ones who rifled the wizard's tower get xp for that, and those who helped knock down the griffins get xp for that. This allows for a greater reward for a character that was involved with all three activities than in just one, or none.

Side note regarding your wizard's tower example: in our games its a long-standing player-driven tradition that all treasure and booty is divided equally, meaning it's quite rare that a DM can use acquired treasure as a reward mechanism like you suggest here.

So yeah. Actually I can and do remove XP, and leveling, from the reward structure entirely. Levels are a yardstick measuring where the campaign currently is, and the PCs, even new PCs, are movers and shakers within the campaign world at that level.
So what do you do with all the things that can change an individual character's level on the fly? For example: I have level-draining undead in my game. Decks of many things and the like can give or remove a pile of xp on the spot. Wish spells, rare though they may be, can give or take levels if done right.

Also, how do you handle characters who die, stay dead for an adventure, then come back? Do they get equal xp or levels for being dead? (if yes, this seems kind of ludicrous)

This doesn't mean I don't understand the other approaches, and I am fine playing in games that use them. But ES@1 in particular is running under a particularly bizarre assumption: That only adventuring in an adventuring party can truly help you climb past 1st level.
One can assume that anyone else in the game world who is above 1st level is already busy doing other things... :)

That said, I don't subscribe to full-on ES@1; but I do insist that new or replacement characters* come in either a level or two below the party average, or a level below the lowest, or at a floor level, depending on the campaign. There's lots of other levelled entities in the game world and lots of ways to gain levels other than adventuring; adventuring just happens to be by far the fastest way. But when Kallie the Thief dies and the party go looking for a replacement it's almost certain the replacement will be lower level than Kallie was.

* - unless it is a player's FIRST character in that campaign, in which case it comes in at the party average.

Having every new PC come in as a novice, just starting out in the world for the first time, effectively eliminates a huge number of potential backgrounds for why someone would be joining your high-level group of adventurers. Drizzt is joining up with your party of 11th level characters on a dire mission to save the North? Well, he's just a 1st level ranger, fresh from Menzoberranzan. Raistlin is joining your party, having already earned his red robes, and the title Wizard of High Sorcery? He's 1st level, even though the rest of the group is 15th level and in the midst of a massive campaign against armies of evil dragonriders...because.

It just ends up causing a pretty significant disconnect, because young, inexperienced characters wouldn't likely be WELCOMED into a seasoned party. Not unless they are extraordinary, and even those would be the exception that prove the rule. One? Maybe two such characters coming in at so low a level in a mid-to-high level campaign? Sure, ok, perhaps. But all of them? Not without eliminating an enormous percentage of potential back stories, or making those backstories not mesh with the relative power level of the character itself. Sure, your druid has been protecting these lands for decades, but she only knows a handful of the weakest of spells in a druid's repertoire, deal with it. That...is a bit too draconian, too heavy-handed a rule to impose, imho.
Yes, I agree there's holes with strict ES@1 which is why I don't do it; though with that said it's trivially easy to dream up a logical in-game rationale for it if desired, which might go:

The only true free-agent adventurers are those fresh out of their 1st-level training. To adventure in the field, these characters must first sign on to an Adventuring Company (of which the PCs-as-a-whole are one), and once signed their allegiance may never change on pain of death; this is strictly enforced by the Companies themselves to prevent recruiting wars, defections, and what the modern business world calls headhunting. Thus all experienced adventurers are signed to a Company, and if your Company finds itself shorthanded its only recourse is to recruit raw 1st-level free agents. For taxation purposes, the King's agents are constantly kept advised of the membership of each Company.

To think that up took as long as it did to type it; it's not perfect, but more thought might give better ideas.

Lan-"if you ever get a 1st-level version of Drizz't in your party, do us all a favour and kill it immediately"-efan
 

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