• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E New playtest packet available.

Stalker0

Legend
The new barb does look pretty cool, does appear a bit OP at first glance but we will see how it stacks up.

I could see them dropping iron hide long term. A barb can wear light armor and with the half damage while raging ability plus his naturally high HP I think that might give barbs enough toughness.
 

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Rune

Once A Fool
Righto. Which is why I mentioned magic armor in particular. :) It's a serious boost at lower levels, but it's not like the barbarian is actually falling behind at any point - they'll just wear whatever's best, like D&D characters have done for ages.

-O

A character wearing an very expensive +1 mithril shirt will have exactly the same AC as a barbarian with the same Dex and a Con bonus of +4.

That Con bonus could (if the player is inclined to increase it), go up by 1 every 8 levels. +1 Mithril Chain (presumably the same thing as Mithril Shirt?) is listed as Very Rare and, therefore, appropriate for character levels 7+. Looks pretty close to me. If I were playing a con-based barbarian, I would probably forgo armor the whole way--unless my DM gave out magic armor as candy (at lower than baseline levels).
 

Obryn

Hero
A character wearing an very expensive +1 mithril shirt will have exactly the same AC as a barbarian with the same Dex and a Con bonus of +4.

That Con bonus could (if the player is inclined to increase it), go up by 1 every 8 levels. +1 Mithril Chain (presumably the same thing as Mithril Shirt?) is listed as Very Rare and, therefore, appropriate for character levels 7+. Looks pretty close to me. If I were playing a con-based barbarian, I would probably forgo armor the whole way--unless my DM gave out magic armor as candy (at lower than baseline levels).
Right. I was replying to Jester about their AC falling behind, which doesn't seem to be the case. I'm arguing that AC is not one of the Barbarians weaknesses. Neither, by extension, is survivability.

-O
 

Stalker0

Legend
A character wearing an very expensive +1 mithril shirt will have exactly the same AC as a barbarian with the same Dex and a Con bonus of +4.

That Con bonus could (if the player is inclined to increase it), go up by 1 every 8 levels.

A couple of notes. A con bonus of +4 is likely going to be very rare. Most barbs that had that would probably have a lower strength and certainly not a high dex. I would think a con bonus of +2 or +3 is more reasonable.

Second, remember that a PC can never have a stat greater than 20. So no matter the level, +5 from con is the max you can get.
 

Radiating Gnome

Adventurer
I played the 9th level rogue in the Winter Fantasy playtest area, and he kicked out a arse-ton of damage -- overshadowing the barbarian in the party. He was able to get advantage on his melee attacks basically at will (two weapon fighting benefit), and so on just about every attack he had the choice of taking the double roll to hit, or using the sneak attack ability to double his martial dice damage on the attack.

Since the halfling had two luck rerolls/day, it was an easy choice most of the time. So, on his attacks he was doing 1d8+9+2(5d6, treat 1s as 2s) damage. It averages around 50 hp of damage.

He's a real paper tiger, though -- he has one defensive ability (add his skill die to his AC as a reaction when he's attacked and there's an ally adjacent) but other than that he's going to take a beating fast.

-rg
 

Rune

Once A Fool
I don't think this pans out. If your math is bounded, you have a very limited range of acceptable bonuses you can apply to a d20 roll. We can see that with class-based attack bonuses - they crawl upwards very slowly, and with good reason. If your target numbers vary around an 11 or so on the roll, each + or - means you hit (or miss) 10% more often than before.

Sorry, not following you. Each +1 or -1 to hit a static target number means a 5% swing either way. Or do you mean that the goal is to consistently hit with a d20 roll of 11 or better? 'Cause that's still 5%, assuming the AC stays the same.

And, if the AC is scaling with the attack bonuses, that's not bounded accuracy, it's scaling accuracy.

That's a pretty major shift. Each +1 becomes really precious, and if you're not hoarding those +1's at every opportunity, you're missing out.

As shown above, I believe each bonus is exactly half as precious as you do. Mathematically, speaking. Philosophically, I disagree that the game is improved by having all characters always succeed on the same d20 roll.

Bounded accuracy doesn't let a DM ignore the math - it makes the d20 probabilities intensely touchy and sensitive to small deviations, and easier to break if you're not careful. I speak from experience here - it might not seem like it, but 4e uses bounded accuracy, already. The difference in 4e is that the level scale gives you a wider margin of possible outcomes over the span of a character's career, as opposed to Next where the scale hardly moves at all with level.

I don't think you and I mean the same thing by "bounded accuracy." It's not about scaling defenses with attacks, it's about eliminating (or de-emphasizing) the need for such scaling in the first place.

Also, one of the significant reasons that 4e had to scale defenses with AC was because the system was built on the assumption that, in order to diversify attack options, most attacks would have riders attached that (mostly) only triggered on hits. Since the purpose of using a particular attack was often to trigger the rider, it became much more important from a player's point of view to hit than it otherwise would be. This (in my view) simultaneously sums up everything that was right with 4e and everything that was wrong with it.

I could see them dropping iron hide long term. A barb can wear light armor and with the half damage while raging ability plus his naturally high HP I think that might give barbs enough toughness.

Personally, I hope not. I love the idea of a barbarian who girds himself (or herself!) in nothing more than warpaint and/or with various non-magical fetishes before wading into battle.
 



Obryn

Hero
Sorry, not following you. Each +1 or -1 to hit a static target number means a 5% swing either way. Or do you mean that the goal is to consistently hit with a d20 roll of 11 or better? 'Cause that's still 5%, assuming the AC stays the same.

And, if the AC is scaling with the attack bonuses, that's not bounded accuracy, it's scaling accuracy.

As shown above, I believe each bonus is exactly half as precious as you do. Mathematically, speaking. Philosophically, I disagree that the game is improved by having all characters always succeed on the same d20 roll.
Mathematically, if I was hitting on 10 out of 20 numbers before, but am hitting on 11 out of 20 numbers now, I'm hitting 10% more often. If my target is higher, this percentage increases.

I don't think you and I mean the same thing by "bounded accuracy." It's not about scaling defenses with attacks, it's about eliminating (or de-emphasizing) the need for such scaling in the first place.

Also, one of the significant reasons that 4e had to scale defenses with AC was because the system was built on the assumption that, in order to diversify attack options, most attacks would have riders attached that (mostly) only triggered on hits. Since the purpose of using a particular attack was often to trigger the rider, it became much more important from a player's point of view to hit than it otherwise would be. This (in my view) simultaneously sums up everything that was right with 4e and everything that was wrong with it.
Even if the only goal of an attack is doing damage, accuracy is paramount. Not if it means sacrificing too much on the damage side of the equation, mind you, but it's key - and more so if there's a very narrow window of possible bonuses.

I'm not suggesting that Next needs to scale with level; I think 4e would have been better with less scaling, honestly. I'm pointing out that, if you remove the level scaling from 4e, it's more or less a bounded accuracy system.

-O
 

Rune

Once A Fool
Right. I was replying to Jester about their AC falling behind, which doesn't seem to be the case. I'm arguing that AC is not one of the Barbarians weaknesses. Neither, by extension, is survivability.

-O

That's something we can definitely agree on. The AC should be only slightly behind the fighter, and, given the other survivability features, I'd say that's where it should be.

A couple of notes. A con bonus of +4 is likely going to be very rare. Most barbs that had that would probably have a lower strength and certainly not a high dex. I would think a con bonus of +2 or +3 is more reasonable.

Second, remember that a PC can never have a stat greater than 20. So no matter the level, +5 from con is the max you can get.

I was providing +4 as a baseline for comparison. Actually, with a point-built character, it is would be pretty easy for a character to start out with two 16s and a 15.

(Interestingly, the rules don't provide any way to start out with a stat higher than 17--after race and class adjustments--without rolling dice.)

If this approach were taken, those two 16s could be 18s by level 8 and 20s by level 16.

With all of the advantage options that the barbarian gets, I could see a non-armor-wearing high-dex, high-con fighter with a mere 15 in Str being very effective.
 

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