New PrC: Kineticist

[Axelos]

Okay, I've designed another new PrC and would like comments on balance issues, appropriateness, etc. Please help out!

Kineticist PrC

 

[Spatzimaus]

Short version: prerequisites far too easy, class skill list too generous, and a couple of the abilities are really abusable. Overall, it's a nice concept, though.

Long version:
1> There's already a Psionic PrC named the Kineticist (Mind's Eye, it's the generalization of the Pyro from the PsiHB).

2> Prerequisites: most PrCs don't specify a stat explicitly. Drop the "DEX 13+" part; it's not needed, anyway, since you require Dodge, which needs DEX 13 already.

The prerequisites are FAR too easy. A Human Barbarian or Psychic Warrior can meet them in one level. (The PW has to take Speed of Thought as his bonus Feat, though). A Barbarian 1/Rogue 2 can make it for any race. In general, PrCs aren't supposed to be reachable before level 6 or so.

Require some skill ranks, a BAB minimum, Evasion, whatever you need. Some up-chain Feats like Spring Attack (so that you'd need Dodge AND Mobility first) would help too.

3> What's the Hit Die? I'd say d8 based on the skill points, but if it's d10 then it's way too good.

4> Class Skills: Don't give Hide, Move Silently, and Tumble as class skills unless the class is specifically designed to be Rogue-like. If you want to require ranks of these in the prerequisites, fine, but otherwise drop these. For example, requiring 10 ranks of Tumble solves several problems, and it's an appropriate ability for the flavor. But, there's nothing in the class' abilities that seems sneaky, so H/MS should be dropped.

5> Kinetic Blow: Enhancement bonuses don't stack, like almost all other named bonuses. It's a bad idea to make an exception within a specific type; otherwise, you'd be able to bypass epic-level DR (/+6) easily.
But, if you keep it Enhancement, then the ability isn't as useful at high levels. Instead, I'd just change it to a flat damage bonus, say +2 per point spent. That way it stacks with any existing Enhancement bonus on the item, and doesn't help with attack rolls, versus DR or Sunder.

6> Alacrity: far too cheap, make it at least 1 point per round, maybe 2. Haste is HUGE, at least in 3E, and with almost 60 points you can be permanently hasted for a long time. The 3.5E Haste is far more appropriate for this sort of class anyway, although you'll have to specify that it's self-only.

7> General stuff:
There should be something expanding on the Fast Movement part. Maybe a "spend 1 point to get +10' for one round" ability. Don't require something for the class and then wait until level 10 to do anything with it.

 

[Stalker0]

I think the issues that need addressing have been summed up, but I also agree I think the concept of the class is VERY cool

 

[Rahkan]

I agree with the above guy, Spatzimus, but I got to add my own 2 cents. This prestige class is sweet, especially for a monk or rogue, not sweet in terms of power, but just in terms of coolness. What you got here is some original stuff. You should try to get it published, better than many of the PrCs out there.

 

[Axelos]

Short version: prerequisites far too easy, class skill list too generous, and a couple of the abilities are really abusable. Overall, it's a nice concept, though.

Yeah, I realized later that the prerequisites are far too easy. I think I need to add some kind of skill requirement, so that I can guarantee characters below a certain level cannot take this PrC, but I need to think about what skill or skills would be appropriate. Tumble, perhaps?

Long version:
1> There's already a Psionic PrC named the Kineticist (Mind's Eye, it's the generalization of the Pyro from the PsiHB).

Didn't realize that. Need to think of a different name, then. Of course, with all the different companies and individuals out there coming up with so many hundreds if not thousands of prestige classes, I imagine it's impossible to predict what names will already be in use.

As an aside, I'm guessing the Psionic PrC you're talking about is quite different from the PrC here.

2> Prerequisites: most PrCs don't specify a stat explicitly. Drop the "DEX 13+" part; it's not needed, anyway, since you require Dodge, which needs DEX 13 already.

Good point. I should have caught that.

The prerequisites are FAR too easy. A Human Barbarian or Psychic Warrior can meet them in one level. (The PW has to take Speed of Thought as his bonus Feat, though). A Barbarian 1/Rogue 2 can make it for any race. In general, PrCs aren't supposed to be reachable before level 6 or so.

Yeah, as I said above, I realized this after I posted. Actually, the version we're talking about is a very rough draft, so I expected some issues to pop up. This one's kind of stupid, though--I should have caught it before I posted.

I don't want to require a BAB because that would make it so classes with fighter BAB's had the easiest time getting to this PrC, when in fact I think I mostly had the monk and, to a lesser extend, the rogue in mind (though I think it might be a good move, conceptually, for the psychic warrior). That leaves skills, really. So...what skill?

Require some skill ranks, a BAB minimum, Evasion, whatever you need. Some up-chain Feats like Spring Attack (so that you'd need Dodge AND Mobility first) would help too.

Spring attack and evasion...good! BAB minimum, I don't like for reasons posted above. Skill ranks I'll think about, but I have to choose the right skill(s).

3> What's the Hit Die? I'd say d8 based on the skill points, but if it's d10 then it's way too good.

Ah...that one I did not miss. Right below the second paragraph, before the requirements, I indicated the hit die: d8.

4> Class Skills: Don't give Hide, Move Silently, and Tumble as class skills unless the class is specifically designed to be Rogue-like. If you want to require ranks of these in the prerequisites, fine, but otherwise drop these. For example, requiring 10 ranks of Tumble solves several problems, and it's an appropriate ability for the flavor. But, there's nothing in the class' abilities that seems sneaky, so H/MS should be dropped.

I agree about the tumble. I actually did intend this PrC more for monks and rogues than anybody else. Evasion might be a good way to get that.

Dropping H/MS would discourage rogues from taking this path, I think. Though the rogue would gain the unique abilities of the class and a better hit die, he would be losing two very important class skills in addition to already losing several skill points per level.

On the other hand, I could adjust the PrC a bit to flavor it more for monks, psychic warriors, or even rangers. I dunno.

5> Kinetic Blow: Enhancement bonuses don't stack, like almost all other named bonuses. It's a bad idea to make an exception within a specific type; otherwise, you'd be able to bypass epic-level DR (/+6) easily.
But, if you keep it Enhancement, then the ability isn't as useful at high levels. Instead, I'd just change it to a flat damage bonus, say +2 per point spent. That way it stacks with any existing Enhancement bonus on the item, and doesn't help with attack rolls, versus DR or Sunder.

Actually, certain enhancement bonuses do stack: a bow's enhancement stacks with an arrow's enhancement, and a suite of chain mail's enhancement stacks with a shield's enhancement. But those are admittedly very different situations; in both, multiple pieces of magical equipment, specifically designed to function together, are at work.

I think you're right that enhancement is probably not the best way to go. I do want the bonus to affect both the attack roll and the damage roll, however. Of course, I could just make it an unnamed bonus, which stacks with anything.

6> Alacrity: far too cheap, make it at least 1 point per round, maybe 2. Haste is HUGE, at least in 3E, and with almost 60 points you can be permanently hasted for a long time. The 3.5E Haste is far more appropriate for this sort of class anyway, although you'll have to specify that it's self-only.

Hmm...unfortunately, I don't know a whole hell of a lot about 3.5. However, I can certainly increase the kinetic point consumption rate. Keep in mind, however, that the character has a high price to pay for this power. He has to allow himself to get hit! The character cannot use any of his abilities until he is hit, and then his power remains directly proportionate to how frequently he is hit. For that reason alone, I can't see making him spend 2 points/round for the haste effect. 1 point per round, yes...2 points, no.

On the other hand, you might convince me to raise the threshold, so that he needs more reserve kinetic points before he can use the ability.

7> General stuff:
There should be something expanding on the Fast Movement part. Maybe a "spend 1 point to get +10' for one round" ability. Don't require something for the class and then wait until level 10 to do anything with it.

Um...yeah, that works. Great idea!

 

[Spatzimaus]

I wouldn't worry about the name overlap too much. While in general you want to avoid using the same name as a class in a WotC product, I don't think anyone's going to confuse the two classes. And, it's not a published product, it's just their online thing.

Actually, certain enhancement bonuses do stack: a bow's enhancement stacks with an arrow's enhancement, and a suite of chain mail's enhancement stacks with a shield's enhancement.

Well, to nitpick, they're not stacking. The enhancement from a shield and the enhancement from the armor are actually modifiers to Armor AC. If something neutralizes your Armor AC (like a touch attack) it also neutralizes the enhancement bonus. So, since the Armor AC bonuses from armor and shield stack, the effects of the enhancement bonuses stack too.

As for bow and arrows, while the attack and damage bonus stack, the enhancement bonuses themselves aren't adding. A +3 bow firing +3 arrows doesn't bypass Stoneskin's DR 10/+5. So, if you wanted your Kinetic Blow ability to work in a similar way (adding to attack bonus and damage bonus but not increasing the actual enhancement bonus) you can do that, but you're probably better off in the long run keeping it simple. That's why I said just add 2 points (or 1d4 if you like randomness) for each point you spend. Besides being a Sneak Attack analog, it's not something you confuse with an Enhancement bonus.

The 3.5 Haste:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rs/20030429a

It is going to be a general combat buff, NOT something casters want all the time. It's a group spell now, that gives +1 attack bonus, +1 AC, +1 Reflex, +30' movement, and an extra attack at your full bonus if you take a Full Attack action. Giving a self-only version of this seems like an ideal 10th-level ability for your class.

As for the "he has to be hit first" thing: I pull out an unenchanted dagger and poke myself. There, it's charged. If one little poke bought me 12 rounds of Haste, it'd be way too much.
You can add a restriction for this (for example, say that it only charges the ability if the damage exceeds the buffer), but then you get bookkeeping headaches. Even without this sort of thing, the only way this is a huge drawback is if either the bad guys refuse to attack your guy directly (yeah right) or if the fight's over in one round. It's a drawback, sure, but not enough to allow effectively permanent Haste. Remember, all of the items that bestow Haste only give you 10 rounds of it (those who didn't were errata'd).
Maybe you could just explicitly say that no matter how many points you spend you can't get more than 10 rounds per day from it; some sort of fatigue thing. You'd still want to have it cost 1 per round, though.

 

[Axelos]

I wouldn't worry about the name overlap too much. While in general you want to avoid using the same name as a class in a WotC product, I don't think anyone's going to confuse the two classes. And, it's not a published product, it's just their online thing.

If it were anybody but WotC, I'd stick with the name. As it is WotC and I don't want too many headaches, I'll try to think of something else.

As for bow and arrows, while the attack and damage bonus stack, the enhancement bonuses themselves aren't adding. A +3 bow firing +3 arrows doesn't bypass Stoneskin's DR 10/+5. So, if you wanted your Kinetic Blow ability to work in a similar way (adding to attack bonus and damage bonus but not increasing the actual enhancement bonus) you can do that, but you're probably better off in the long run keeping it simple. That's why I said just add 2 points (or 1d4 if you like randomness) for each point you spend. Besides being a Sneak Attack analog, it's not something you confuse with an Enhancement bonus.

Now I see your point. As for the amount of damage added per point expended, I see each kinetic point as 1 potential point of damage that was absorbed by the character, so in a not to the law of conservation of energy I don't want one kinetic point to deal out more than 1 point of damage when released.

It is going to be a general combat buff, NOT something casters want all the time. It's a group spell now, that gives +1 attack bonus, +1 AC, +1 Reflex, +30' movement, and an extra attack at your full bonus if you take a Full Attack action. Giving a self-only version of this seems like an ideal 10th-level ability for your class.

Sound nice. However, I'm designing my PrC's with 3E in mind (as I'm not entirely certain I'll update to 3.5 and I imagine a lot of others out there won't). It should be no big deal to update it to 3.5, though.

As for the "he has to be hit first" thing: I pull out an unenchanted dagger and poke myself. There, it's charged.

Thank you thank you thank you! That was the most important thing you could have possibly pointed out. My God, 10 years of gaming and I didn't think of that?!

Okay, "external sources" clause going in right now. You can't absorb kinetic energy you generate. The energy must come from an external source. This won't do anything to stop your ally from poking you to charge up your kinetic points, but I can't think of anything right now to prevent that. I just can't make "intent" a component of whether an attack qualifies for charging the kinetic storage or not.

Of course, if your buddy attacks you, he's using one of his attacks to do so. Usually it will probably be better for your allies to attack the enemies instead and rely on the enemies to charge up the kineticist's kinetic points.

Oh, and I should probably make the points wear off much more quickly, to prevent "charging up" before battle.

Maybe you could just explicitly say that no matter how many points you spend you can't get more than 10 rounds per day from it; some sort of fatigue thing. You'd still want to have it cost 1 per round, though.

Hey, not a bad idea there. Done.

Okay, I have updated this guy and loaded the new version with the same file name, so clicking the link in my first post will now bring up the newer version.

Changes:

New Requirements:
10 ranks of Tumble
Mobility and Spring Attack feats
Evasion class feature

Hide and Use Rope have been eliminated as class skills. (Kept Move Silently because, well, the kineticist should be good at anything related to movement I think.)

Reduced initial kinetic absorption to 1/+2. Increases to 2/+3 at 3rd level, 3/+3 at 5th level, 4/+4 at 7th level, and 5/+4 at 9th level. Overall, kinetic absorption is now just slightly weaker (re: easier to defeat).

Added "external sources" clause to indicate that the kineticist cannot charge himself; the attacks must come from someone else.

Time limit for kinetic storage has been dropped all the way down to just one minute per kineticist level, rather than 24 hours. This should eliminate "charging up at dawn".

Eliminated "enhancement" from the description of the Kinetic Blow.

Added Burst of Speed class ability, which enables character to burn 1 kinetic point for one-round +10 bonus to move rate, at 3rd level. Increases to allow burning of 2 kinetic points for +20 bonus at 7th level.

Kinetic Reflexes: limit on points expended changed so that the limit is now imposed per round, rather than per saving throw. This means a kineticist who must make multiple reflex saves in a single round cannot add his maximum kinetic reflexes bonus on every saving throw, but must anticipate how many such saving throws he will need to make and divide his points up appropriately.

Added Kinetic Dodge class ability, which enables character to gain a one-round AC bonus equal to a number of kinetic points expended (max = Dex bonus). This bonus to AC only works against the opponent against whom the character is using his Dodge feat.

Alacrity: First, increased threshold so that the kineticist must now have at least 8 (rather than 5) kinetic points in reserve for alacrity to work. Second, increased rate at which kinetic points are consumed to 1/round. Third, limited alacrity to 10 rounds per day, not necessarilly consecutive.

Also, the descriptions of kinetic reflexes, kinetic dodge, burst of speed, and alacrity now indicate that the character cannot use these abilities unless he is wearing only light armor or no armor.



Let me know what y'all think.

 

[haiiro]

Let me know what y'all think.

I think you've created one sweet prestige class, and I've tucked it away for future use. Excellent work.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Edit: Forgot to add something else. While I'm all for upping the prerequisites, you may have gone too far. 4 Feats and 10 ranks of a skill most classes don't get isn't too bad. That's pretty typical for PrCs, although maybe a bit light. These sorts of requirements can be met by multiclassers and single-classers equally well.
The problem is the other two: Evasion (which only two core classes get), and Fast movement (which only two core classes get, plus Psychic warrior can get with a Feat, and it rules out small races altogether). A Monk can make it to this pretty well, although nonhumans would have to use their Feats at levels 1, 3, 6, and 9 to get there at level 10. Anyone other than a Human Monk would have to mix Fighter, Barbarian, and Rogue to enter this at level 8 (or Psychic Warrior and Rogue), and for most races that'd mean an XP penalty if they're not balanced.

If you dropped either Evasion OR the fast movement, it'd be on par with most other PrCs. Given the flavor of the class I'd drop Evasion. Now, in 3.5E at least one other class (Ranger) will be getting Evasion, so it'll get a bit easier, but you're balancing for 3E.

Of course, if your buddy attacks you, he's using one of his attacks to do so.

Oh, and I should probably make the points wear off much more quickly, to prevent "charging up" before battle.

Yeah, to me the duration is the big loophole. My buddy pokes me at the beginning of the day (no jokes here, please) and I'm set for 24 hours?

You could solve most of this by making the points expire more quickly. You wouldn't want to make it too short, or else the large storage capacity of high-level people becomes almost worthless. Every ability would become a combat-only ability. While that might be okay for balance, it hurts the flavor of the class a bit. Some sort of decay might be a good idea.

For example, you could simply say that you lose 5 stored points per hour. You, as DM, know that it's been 3 hours since the last fight, so you'd tell the player to lose 15 points. This'd also allow you to remove the "go away when resting" part, which solves the question of what happens if you're attacked while sleeping.

At low levels, that means points expire after one or two hours, making it a combat-only effect. At high levels you could keep them up to 12 hours, and use things like the speed boost in other situations, or at the start of the next fight. Now, if you're a 10th-level Kineticist and can remind your buddy to poke you once per hour all day long, more power to you (no pun intended), but it pretty much removes the abuse.

You could also provide some sort of drawback to keeping power stored all day; you should probably keep it mostly harmless. For example, the Energy Buffer power absorbs elemental energy, and emits bright light for 1 round per point of damage it absorbed. So, you could do something similar and say that the Kineticist glows faintly any time he has energy stored (which explains the hourly energy loss mentioned above). On the bright side this gives off light, on the downside it ruins Hide checks and makes for awkward social situations. This'd also explain why Hide isn't a class skill any more.
If you want to hide, or even go into town without drawing attention, you'd want to burn off all the energy first. The movement ability you added seems great for that. ("I run in circles for five minutes")

 

[Dalamar]

Fast movement (which only two core classes get, plus Psychic warrior can get with a Feat, and it rules out small races altogether

The problem of locking out small races could be solved by instead of requiring 40ft of movement, requiring 'faster than base movement for the race'. You might want to word it better though.