new sorc spell list?

[cwhs01]

partly due to a question on another thread I've been thinking about the sorceror spell lists. I think it's anoying, wrong and not really necessary flavourwise for wizards and sorcerors to share spell lists. If anyone has considered this question before (i presume so), please point me towards any relevant threads dealing with the subject.

but anyway.

The spells of the two classes are arcane in nature, but one, wizards comes from learning, tuition and study while the other is inate and untrained. Or at least thats how i see the two classes. Blood versus books. But the spell lists are the same for the two classes.

The reason is, presumably that its easier that way to balance the two classes.

But i still think, that for reasons of flavour alone, playing up the draconic heritage that is sometimes used to explain the sorc powers, the sorceror should have its own spell list. Granted, it would include alot, even most, of what the wizard has access to. But i think also some spells from druid and cleric spell lists should be included.

I was thinking that the list should focus on selfreliance (buff and cure spells) and elemental atunement (blast/protection spells with earth/air/water/fire descriptors). Summoning spells (possible including SNA) is also a strong candidate. What shouldnt be included is any spells dependent on alignment, direct connection to a god (eg. clerical divination spells and Prayer, Bless and Aid), and a limit on general utility spells.

There is no good reason that a sorc has acces to hold portal/detect secret doors/arcane lock. presumably his draconic ancestors would have little need for opening doors, and i don't find these spells to actually improve the flavour of the sorc class. It's just the easiest solution, having one spell lists for the two classes. IMO not a good reason.

Give me your thoughts on the subject

 

[Li Shenron]

If you enforce the draconic heritage, it is fine to adjust the spell list.

Thinking about magic schools for example.
The following are perhaps the best fitting:

Evocation
Enchantment
Transmutation
Universal

The next are also moderately appropriate:

Abjuration
Illusion
Conjuration (Summoning/Calling)
Conjuration (Healing)
Divination

While these may be removed in almost their entirety from the sorcerer:

Necromancy
Conjuration (Creation)

As an example, you could:
- support the first 4 schools by (1) adding a few spells from other classes and (2) lower the level of a selected number of spells
- keep the second group of schools about as they are, perhaps adding/removing (or changing level up/down) some specific spells
- remove all necromancies and creation spells from the list

 

[wuyanei]

IMC, sorcerers gain UMD as a class skill and 4 + Int skill ranks. They can learn spells from ANY list, but have no list to call their own except for the spells they actually know. In other words, if they want to use wands or scrolls of an unknown spell, they must use UMD to emulate a class feature (DC 20 UMD check).

Unlike a rogue, sorcerers can use their own caster level to activate scrolls if their caster level is higher than the rolled result minus 20. In other words, the sorcerer only needs a DC 20 UMD check to be able to activate any scroll. If his UMD check result is more than 20 + the scroll's caster level, he can activate the scroll without trouble. If he rolls above 20 but below 20 + the scroll's caster level, he can attempt to use his own caster level to activate the scroll. However, if his own caster level is below that of the scroll, he must roll a caster level check to activate the scroll successfully, and if he fails the caster level check he risks a mishap just like a wizard does.

So, with this method, there is no need to make a new spell list for the sorcerer -- each sorcerer constructs a unique and personal spell list of his or her own.

 

[mirivor]

I agree with you. The sorcerer as a class needs all manner of work to become what is, in my opinion, a class worthy of itself. Many of these issues have been addressed in countless posts here on ENWorld, so I won't rehash them.

Splitting the schools among the wizard and sorcerer is a good idea. Because the sorcerer casts spells using sheer will and lacks the knowledge that a wizard has, consider assigning schools to the sorcerer that, in your mind, wouldn't take much thought. Evocation is an obvious one for the sorc, whereas the conjuration spells dealing with creation and summoning is probably more for a wizard (I am thinking magical circles and such). Li Shenron sums it up well. Then, of course, you could always scour all of the spells in the Player's Handbook and make entirely new lists. I can think of many fantasy novels where sorcerers can heal, demolish, and do all manner of similar things.

Later!

 

[smootrk]

I agree with your assesment of Sorcerers and their spell lists. I dislike sorcerers as they are currently drafted. The idea is good, and makes sense in general, especially to account for the magical nature of certain lineages (draconic, fey decended, and even outsider 'touched' races). The spell lists should be tweaked for each type of lineage and should omit many spells which ought to remain exclusive to the 'learned' type of spellcaster (wizards, cloistered priest types, artificer types).

IMO sorcerer spells should be centered on manipulating energy, augmentation/transformation of self, mental control (enchantments, charms), or other spell effects. Evocations are probably best suited, along with ability augmentation spells.

Spells that seem out of place are identify, divinations in general (but that is debatable for sure), runes, symbols, conjurations (does not make sense to me, seems more like a wizard process with magic circles, true names, etc. - all learned and codified things). Spells dealing in constucts in general don't seem appropriate in my mind.

I just closer at the last post and I see that your thoughts pretty much mirror my own.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Monte Cook's Complete Book of Eldritch Might has a variant sorcerer with its own spell list, containing only the more appropriate PHB spells.

 

[Jens]

IMC, sorcerers gain UMD as a class skill and 4 + Int skill ranks. They can learn spells from ANY list, but have no list to call their own except for the spells they actually know. In other words, if they want to use wands or scrolls of an unknown spell, they must use UMD to emulate a class feature (DC 20 UMD check).

This sounds interesting, have you changed the sorcerer in any other ways?

 

[wuyanei]

This sounds interesting, have you changed the sorcerer in any other ways?

Thread-jack alert!

Quite a few tweaks, in fact. Much of this is stolen from various sources, including the enworld community. Thanks, everybody! Couldn't have done it without you!

A list of my sorcerer class tweaks:
[sblock]Skill points: 4 + Int mod

Class skills: Add Knowledge(the planes), intimidate, diplomacy, and UMD as class skills.

Spell-per-day: The sorcerer gets 0 spells-per-day in a new spell-level at each odd level (so the sorcerer advances as fast as a wizard if he has high enough Cha). The sorcerer only get his bonus spell slot in spell-levels that he get 0 spells per day.

Spells Known: As listed below (based on the spontaneous divine caster):

Table: Sorcerer Spells Known
	———————— Spells Known —–———————
Level	0	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th
1st	4	2	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	—
2nd	5	2	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	—
3rd	5	3	1[size=1][sup]1[/sup][/size]	—	—	—	—	—	—	—
4th	6	3	1	—	—	—	—	—	—	—
5th	6	4	2	1[size=1][sup]1[/sup][/size]	—	—	—	—	—	—
6th	7	4	2	1	—	—	—	—	—	—
7th	7	5	3	2	1[size=1][sup]1[/sup][/size]	—	—	—	—	—
8th	8	5	3	2	1	—	—	—	—	—
9th	8	5	4	3	2	1[size=1][sup]1[/sup][/size]	—	—	—	—
10th	9	5	4	3	2	1	—	—	—	—
11th	9	5	5	4	3	2	1[size=1][sup]1[/sup][/size]	—	—	—
12th	9	5	5	4	3	2	1	—	—	—
13th	9	5	5	4	4	3	2	1[size=1][sup]1[/sup][/size]	—	—
14th	9	5	5	4	4	3	2	1	—	—
15th	9	5	5	4	4	4	3	2	1[size=1][sup]1[/sup][/size]	—
16th	9	5	5	4	4	4	3	2	1	—
17th	9	5	5	4	4	4	3	3	2	1[size=1][sup]1[/sup][/size]
18th	9	5	5	4	4	4	3	3	2	1
19th	9	5	5	4	4	4	3	3	3	2
20th	9	5	5	4	4	4	3	3	3	3
[size=1][sup]1[/sup][/size] Provided the sorcerer has high enough Charisma score to have a bonus spell of this level.

Spells: There is no sorcerer spell-list as such. A spell is not considered on a particular sorcerer’s spell list unless he has learned to cast that spell. This means that a sorcerer cannot use most spell trigger or spell completion items unless he knows that specific spell, or unless he succeeds at a UMD check.

A sorcerer learns to use his innate arcane power to sculpt effects that emulate arcane spells, divine spells, draconic spells, or even Charisma-based spell-like abilities of magical creatures (always subject to DM approval). If a sorcerer emulates a bardic spell, he is subject to the same restrictions as a bard when casting that spell (no Silence Spell, for example). If a sorcerer emulates a divine spell, he is subject to the same alignment restrictions as a divine spellcaster. Most (but not all) sorcerers draw their spells primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

Adapting a new spell or spell-like ability to become a sorcerer spell is game-mechanically the same as researching a new spell. Only after a sorcerer learns to cast a spell is that spell considered to be on his spell list. The only exception to this rule is the read magic spell, which is always considered to be on any sorcerer’s spell list, whether he can cast that spell or not. Many sorcerers take a level of wizard, representing formal arcane schooling of some sort. <...the rest are the same as the old rules...>

Eschew Materials: Sorcerers do not use material components when casting spells. However, they still require foci. If a spell has a costly material component, instead of providing this, the sorcerer must spend experience points equal to one-tenth of the cost (in gp) of the material component needed.

Bonus Feats: At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a sorcerer gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, she can choose a metamagic feat, a draconic feat, or Spell Schooling. The sorcerer must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feats that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. The sorcerer is not limited to the categories of metamagic feats, draconic feats, or Spell Schooling when choosing these feats.

New Feats:

Spell Schooling [SPECIAL]
Prerequisite: Sorcerer level 1st.
Benefit: Choose a spell list, such as bard, cleric, druid or wizard. You may consider three spell levels of spells from that spell list to be on your personal spell list. For example, if you take this feat once, and choose the Wizard spell list, all 0th, 1st, and 2nd level wizard spells are considered to be on your personal spell list. If you take this feat for the wizard spell list again, all 0th thru 5th level wizard spells are considered to be on your personal spell list.
Normal: Without this feat, only spells that you actually know are considered to be on your spell list.
Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time, you may choose a perviously chosen spell list and add three more levels of spells from that spell list to your personal list, or you may choose a different spell list.[/sblock]

Happy gaming!
Yanei Wu

 

[Raven Crowking]

Second Threadjack:

I simply dumped sorcerer and replaced it with the witch from Arcana Unearthed. Both fit the same game niche, but the AU version is, IMHO, far superior.

RC

 

[Thia Halmades]

Your other option is to dump it and replace it with Warlock from Comp.Arc., another pure blaster with options. I have to figure out if the stupid thing is balanced or not, but the premise is the same.

"I HAVE JUST FWACKOOMED YOUR END BOSS"