New to D&D - Level x magic item?

[DadToD&DBoys]

S'mon - Thanks for the info on other similar games. We're enjoying D&D 4e so far so we'll stick with it, but it's good to know that there are alternative D&D type games out there.

Klaus - Yes, we'll soon have to pickup some more 4e resources. We went through some book stores over the Chrismas break when I was unsure if D&D was just a passing interest or something that would keep their (my children's) interest longer term, so I didn't want to buy a bunch of books that the kids would never use. In fact, I had no idea which books to buy to start. That's when we bought the Red Box. We've continued into the Dungeon Master's kit - purchasing that in the New Year.

Just now I've just read through the Red Box errata thread - man, that would have been useful to find before now. It would have reduced some of my confusion and questions in the beginning. This brings me to another question...

Will our Red Box characters be imbalanced playing through other adventures? Should we create new ones before they get too far with their Red Box created characters?

Thanks for your input and responses.

Dad to D&D Boys

 

[Klaus]

S'mon - Thanks for the info on other similar games. We're enjoying D&D 4e so far so we'll stick with it, but it's good to know that there are alternative D&D type games out there.

Klaus - Yes, we'll soon have to pickup some more 4e resources. We went through some book stores over the Chrismas break when I was unsure if D&D was just a passing interest or something that would keep their (my children's) interest longer term, so I didn't want to buy a bunch of books that the kids would never use. In fact, I had no idea which books to buy to start. That's when we bought the Red Box. We've continued into the Dungeon Master's kit - purchasing that in the New Year.

Just now I've just read through the Red Box errata thread - man, that would have been useful to find before now. It would have reduced some of my confusion and questions in the beginning. This brings me to another question...

Will our Red Box characters be imbalanced playing through other adventures? Should we create new ones before they get too far with their Red Box created characters?

Thanks for your input and responses.

Dad to D&D Boys

Once you have the Rules Cyclopedia, DM's Kit and Heroes of the Fallen Lands, you should be able to remake your Red Box characters to match the rules. They're not unbalanced or anything, though.

 

[DadToD&DBoys]

Thanks again Klaus,

I had to do a Google search for the 'rules cyclopedia'. I couldn't find a current reference to it - only an old hard cover. Were you refering to something newer?

Regarding the balance of the characters...we hadn't really noticed anything yet. You helped me earlier with the powers per level. We realized something was up with the rogue powers from the Red Box (2 at-will and 2 utility at level 1). My other son thought he should have more powers for his wizard and I kept thinking I was missing something.

We'll try to recreate the same characters as close to what we have as we can using the Heroes of the Fallen Lands - or is Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms better? They both sound like players manuals - is one better than the other?

Dad to D&D Boys

 

[Klaus]

Sorry, it's the Rules Compendium.

Heroes of the Fallen Lands has the following classes and races:

- Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard; Dwarf, Eladrin, Elf, Human, Halfling.

Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms has the following classesw and races:

- Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Warlock; Dragonborn, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Human, Tiefling.

Both books have the same "how to create and play a character" material, just the above are different. I suggested Fallen Lands because the material there is closer to what's in the Red Box.

 

[DadToD&DBoys]

Klaus - Thanks again.

I have an observation, perhaps a complaint, but please Klaus don't take it as directed at you - you (and the others here) have been most helpful.

D&D 4e feels to me like there is a huge gap in material between introduction and full playability. It seems there are people new to D&D, and there are experts. There are resources like the Red Box that introduce newcomers like myself, and from there I have to become familiar with 1000 pages of material spread over half a dozen books. It would be nice if there were a middle step available with a single, indexed, 200+- page book that had most of what you'd need to let people truly get a feel for the game. As it is it is intimidating to start looking through the recommended books after the Red Box. It feels as though the people writing the books are so fluent with the material that they're turning off potential players without even realizing it.

I'm determined to keep going with this because I enjoy watching my kids have fun and puzzle things out. Also, I appreciate all the work and logic that must have gone into balancing such a huge and open game. However, if I was just playing for me, I think the volume of information necessary in the way it is presented probably turns off more people than it attracts.

Again, I'm not complaining to you Klaus (or anyone in particular). I'm just giving my thoughts as a newbie to D&D.

Dad to D&D Boys

 

[Klaus]

I see what you mean. That has always been the biggest hurdle of D&D.

During the days of the BECMXI series, each box contained everything to play D&D in a given level range. Since the release of AD&D, you get the entire range through three 300+ page books.

At the moment, what I'd recommend is:

Rules Compendium
Heroes of the Fallen Lands

From there, you can play against the monsters in the Red Box for many sessions. When you're ready for more, the Dungeon Master's Kit and Monster Vault boxes give you the rest of the material needed to play D&D pretty much indefinitely. The rest just adds variety, which might be desirable, but is not really necessary.

 

[Dragonblade]

The red box beginner's set is an introduction to the game but not super useful long term.

The Heroes of The Fallen Lands and Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms books provide a much more in-depth explanation of how to create a character, how your abilities work, and so on. That information is shared across both those books. As Klaus pointed out, the classes they offer is different, however.

DMs Kit provides the basics of how a DM would run a game, design encounters and adventures and provides a pretty good sample adventure.

The Monster Vault provides a lot more monsters. All of the classic D&D monsters are included along with tokens to use.

The Rules Compendium is designed to be a reference book that both players and DMs can use to look up a rule during play. It duplicates some of the rules found in the DM's kit or the two "Heroes of..." books, but also has more in-depth explanations of rules not found in the other books.

At a bare minimum you could theoretically game for years with just one "Heroes of..." book, the Rules Compendium, DM's Kit and Monster Vault.

If your kids really like it, there are a lot of other 4th edition books out there targeted to both players and DMs. There are too many to go through and give you a pros and cons review of each one, but if one seems interesting to you, or there is a particular class or something you heard about and aren't sure where you could find it, then anyone on this forum can help you out and answer those questions.

I am almost 35 and have played D&D since I was 9 years old. I have played and own extensive book collections from all 4 editions of D&D during that time span. Others on this forum have similar experience and knowledge and we'd be happy to help you out. I have a 1 and a half year old son myself and can't wait for the day that he can play with me.

 

[Dragonblade]

There are also quite a few D&D clones that branched from the 3rd edition of D&D. Prior to the current edition, Wizards had a very generous open game license that allowed other publishers to essentially make their own independent games using their D&D rules. You may hear terms like OGL, or SRD, or d20 system bandied about on these boards. Many of these terms refer back to the 3e era of D&D and the independent games that resulted. Many of those games and companies still thrive today.

Pathfinder is probably the most popular one, but there are others like True20, Fantasy Craft, Mutants and Masterminds (a superhero RPG) and so on. I'm familiar with or own most of those as well, so feel free to ask about those too if one of them intrigues you.

 

[DadToD&DBoys]

Dragonblade - Thanks for the advice and other D&D game references. Yes, I've experienced what you say about the helpful people here.

It just seems that 'they' - the D&D 4e publishers - are missing a big opportunity here. Many people will get through the Red Box then have no idea where to go from there. The recommended path from the Red Box is quite a leap. With the Red Box they pretty much hold your hand for every step, then it's information overload. I don't mind investing the work it will take to help my kids (and me) get the most out of this to understand and enjoy D&D. I've found this forum and don't mind googling for answers or asking my kids to help me sort out what they think would happen when I don't know the specific rules. But other people, who don't find this forum, or want a more structured introduction to the game may give up after the Red Box.

It's not that these people wouldn't understand or enjoy the game, it's just that the path from introduction -> beginniner -> intermediate -> advanced -> expert is not clear at all. To me (and probably other beginners) is seems the path is Beginner -> [large pile of encyclopedia type books] -> Expert. My premise is that this scares beginners away.

Dad to D&D Boys

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I think that finding that "middle ground" between absolute beginners and veterans is a problem for any game that has been continually expanded over a lengthy period of time. That said, I think 4e policy of making "everything core" has increased this problem, as it implies that you can't simply ignore certain books (which certainly isn't true). The naming scheme doesn't help either - having a player's handbook and a player's handbook 2 suggests that they are both necessary, whereas if they had called the second one something different it might not have the same impression. All of which is good to get those already in the hobby to collect more books, but makes it daunting for those new to it to get a grip on what they need.

Added to all that was the essentials line, which was supposed to fix all that and be the "entry" books to the hobby. WHich was true for the Red Box, but with the other books it created a potential for confusion. Suddenly not only were there PH 1, 2 & 3, but also 2 Heroes books - unless someone was there to tell a newbie that the essentials line was released to provide an easier entry into playing D&D, it generally did the opposite by muddying the water as to what book to get first.

So I sympathize with you, even as a (somewhat) veteran player myself.

I will echo what the others said - pick up the Essentials books first, starting with the Rules Compendium, DM Kit and whichever Heroes books has more of the classes/races your boys want to play. Next would be the other heroes book - though its not stricly necessary.

You then have everything you need to play (other than dice, pencils & paper) for a good long time... at which point simply pick up whatever books fit your needs at the time. Your boy likes the knight but is ready for and wants something more complicated? Pick up the Player's Handbook. You want more monsters? Pick up the Threats to Nentir Vale or one of the Monster Manuals (keeping in mind that each MM is much better than the one before). Want more DMing tips? Pick up the Dungeon Masters Guide 2.

And, if in doubt, tell us here what you need, garner suggestions as to the best product for that need, filter appropriately (and add salt to taste) and buy whatever you think is best.