D&D (2024) New Wild Shape

[Kobold Avenger]

Does everyone forget to cast Barkskin before wild shaping? AC 16 is pretty respectable, and Resilient (Con) and War Caster are strong picks to keep up concentration in melee (as in, if you don't have them or aren't gaining them ASAP, consider why you are in melee in the first place).

New Barkskin is going to be lost in 1 round if the rules on concentration checks remain what they are. The Druid is going to be taking multiple hits, and will very likely lose those one of those multiple Constitution Saves in the first round they're attacked.

 

[mellored]

So wait…is the low AC a key weakness of the Druid to balance the hp, or actually a benefit? I’m getting confused.

It was a balance for monster design.
Beast got low AC and high HP, making them feel different from some other monster.

And it's fun for druids, feeling different from other classes. No one else gets low AC and high HP.

People are focusing on the wildshape defense but also it’s offense is really strong at those low levels as well.

IMO, People generally play the moon druid for the defense over the offense. (CR1 multiattack bears are a problem).

Druids are controllers, which can include turning into a wall of HP. And I want to add in the control options like being frog that can swallow, or a snake that can restrain.

Gaining 2d6 fire damage at level 17 is meh.

If you want to smash things, then you'd probably lean toward a barbarian. They roll big damage dice and a core feature to reduce defense for more even more offense.

 

[Clint_L]

Does everyone forget to cast Barkskin before wild shaping? AC 16 is pretty respectable, and Resilient (Con) and War Caster are strong picks to keep up concentration in melee (as in, if you don't have them or aren't gaining them ASAP, consider why you are in melee in the first place).

To be honest, if all you want to do is become a bag of HP and turtle down, play a barbarian, not a druid.

New bearskin doesn't work like that; it's a few temp HP. And the main issue we are trying to resolve is moon druids being OP at low levels (i.e. when they can access CR 1 forms at level 2). For your last point, well, that just seems unfair, considering how other people like to play. Druid tanks as damage sponges has a long history and a lot of fans. Nor does it really describe the barbarian playstyle, does it?

Paladins/Fighter Tanks: High AC=damage prevention
Barbarian Tanks: Medium AC+damage reduction
Druid Tanks: Low AC+damage absorption

Those are three fairly distinct ways of tanking, which is interesting in the game (here's hoping monks get a spec that allows them to evasion tank!).

 

[mellored]

Firstly, you are going to have some of these level gated, you aren't going to allow elemental resistance and poisonous at level 1.

Agreed.

Lv X -> Get these features
Lv Y -> Get those features, or combine two features
Lv Z -> Get these over here, or combine two features

Moon Lv X -> Get more
Moon Lv Y -> Combine More
Moon Lv Z -> Get and combine more

Or something along those lines, yes.
Though I'd be fine if the core druid didn't lean on wild shape as much.

Which... is frankly kind of boring design, and it will take so much energy and create so much complexity, when the current design is leaning towards simplicity.

Can't say I see how it's more boring than 3 stat blocks.

Because you will never be able to narrow it down to something like six options, it is going to be far too many spinning dials.

So you would put the max at 6 options?

So something like...

Level 3; Chose one of these 3 options
Level 6: chose one of these 3 options, in addition to the earlier ones.
Level 9: scale the level 3 options
Level 14: scale the level 6 options

Would that be too complex for you?

 

[mellored]

(here's hoping monks get a spec that allows them to evasion tank!).

Monks can dodge as a bonus action, that's pretty evasion tank.

IMO, they mostly just need their ki pool adjusted. Like you get a max of Wis, and can regain one as an action.

 

[Stalker0]

It's a couple of reasonable attacks per round. Decent, but certainly no Spiritual Weapon + Spirit Guardians.

That’s a 5th level combo, versus 2nd. And it takes concentration. And it doesn’t triple your hp.

I’m in the camp (having watched a Druid optimizer in play), that moon druids:

1) are stupidly broken at 2nd level.
2) top tier at 3-4
3) solid at 5th.
4) balanced at 6th

 

[mellored]

Re: barkskin.
in addition to the concentration issue, I'm going to say this is bad from a flavor standpoint.
You turn into a wolf and get covered in bark?

Now a tree druid with barkskin....

 

[Remathilis]

New bearskin doesn't work like that; it's a few temp HP. And the main issue we are trying to resolve is moon druids being OP at low levels (i.e. when they can access CR 1 forms at level 2). For your last point, well, that just seems unfair, considering how other people like to play. Druid tanks as damage sponges has a long history and a lot of fans. Nor does it really describe the barbarian playstyle, does it?

Paladins/Fighter Tanks: High AC=damage prevention
Barbarian Tanks: Medium AC+damage reduction
Druid Tanks: Low AC+damage absorption

Those are three fairly distinct ways of tanking, which is interesting in the game (here's hoping monks get a spec that allows them to evasion tank!).

No, but the new wild shape doesn't work like that either. My point is the 5e druids could easily have +34 THP AND AC 16 at 3rd level. Low AC is a choice, not a balancing factor.

As for fairness and fun, I have little sympathy. 3.5 Batman wizards with infinite scrolls and wands were "fun" for some people. CoDzilla was "fun". Coffeelocks were "fun". But they are all using unintentional interactions in the rules to exploit. And yes, I completely feel the moon druids design was not thought out completely, and the fact the moon druid's power level is a roller coaster of ups and downs is evidence they didn't think out the interaction between CR and PC power level.

I do hope they give the druid a tanky option. I think the moon druids should get their own special "dire wild shape" stat block. But I hope it is better balanced than brown bear at level 2. Because the current druid is a mess regardless of how "fun" it is, and it needs to be better balanced against what other full casters are able to do at that level.

 

[Remathilis]

It's a couple of reasonable attacks per round. Decent, but certainly no Spiritual Weapon + Spirit Guardians.

Good thing One D&D fixes that too by making SW a concentration spell.

It's almost like they are trying to reign in casters this edition...

 

[Chaosmancer]

Though I'd be fine if the core druid didn't lean on wild shape as much.

Can't say I see how it's more boring than 3 stat blocks.

I think the current design is also bad. I'd like to have swim at lv 3, maybe flight at level 5, and then other than the 13th level swap forms as a bonus action, create NEW abilities that don't use Channel Nature, but give the Druid unique abilities.

Then, Moon can get the Multi-attack at 6th along with the resistance. Maybe something tricky to round out level 3, and something new for 14th level. 10 I'm not sure, because it is signicantly powerful along with the multi-attack for a Druid.

But, most designs that go with these sort of "build features" end up... with nothing else. That is the entire thing. Which is more boring to me than what I want.

So you would put the max at 6 options?

So something like...

Level 3; Chose one of these 3 options
Level 6: chose one of these 3 options, in addition to the earlier ones.
Level 9: scale the level 3 options
Level 14: scale the level 6 options

Would that be too complex for you?

That would be about the limit of the complexity I would want on a full-caster.