D&D (2024) New Wild Shape

[Remathilis]

Is it me, or does it seem like one of the designers plays WoW and likes the new evokers?

I play ESO and THIS came to my mind instantly.

Healing Seed Skill

Healing Seed is a skill in the Green Balance skill line under the Warden category in ESO (the Elder Scrolls Online)

eso-hub.com

Healing Seed

Cost: 2430 Magicka
Target: Ground
Duration: 6 seconds
Maximum range: 28 meters
Radius: 8 meters

Effect
Summon a field of flowers which blooms after 6 seconds, healing you and allies in the area for 3486 Health. An ally within the field can activate the Harvest synergy, healing for 3372 Health over 5 seconds.

 

[Bill Zebub]

This would be too much of a change for most people, I know, but I would happily sacrifice some casting (half-caster?) for much better shape-changing.

 

[SteveC]

This is something I can speak to, since I've actually played on. And a Moon Druid, too. I found that at low levels it was a powerful option where I could take a lot of damage. As we got higher level, the low AC and ability of enemies to do a TON of damage mitigated its use. My playstyle is for characters that are complex and can do a lot of different things, but don't overshadow the rest of the group.

The druid as presented here is not something I would play. I am not sure exactly what the thinking is about what you'd do here. You have a weak attack and terrible AC and not much utility.

So I'd say this makes a class that not many people play, and makes it one they're even less likely to do. And it also is not compatible with the traditional 5E druid.

 

[Bill Zebub]

One argument I'm just not buying is this thing about the lack of combat utility if you have to spend a full action shifting. That's only true, in my experience, because the druids who need a round to shift (non-moon druids) also don't get high CR forms. The defensive utility of getting a large pool of HP, even if it costs you a turn to do so, and even if you can't do much else once you've shifted, is significant.

Let's say you take some huge hits from a low Int monster, and are nearly at zero. On your turn you shift and suddenly have a bunch of HP. Then on your subsequent turns you just Dodge. So the monster starts beating on you, and X turns later it finally works through your Dodge and your animal HP....and you are back in the exact position you were before you shifted, except that for X rounds you've tied up a Big Bad, and unlike a lot of spells which do a similar thing:

• The big bad doesn't get a saving throw against the effect
• The effect isn't broken if your friends do damage

So, again, it's not the full action shift that's the problem, it's the full action shift combined with low CR choices.

 

[Stalker0]

This would be too much of a change for most people, I know, but I would happily sacrifice some casting (half-caster?) for much better shape-changing.

You don’t even have to go that far, you can just make primal spells that work on wildshape. Reduce animal/enhance animal, meaning that druids can get some of that old school juice but would need to add a few spells slots to the mix. That gives them the option but balances the book at bit better

 

[MarkB]

One argument I'm just not buying is this thing about the lack of combat utility if you have to spend a full action shifting. That's only true, in my experience, because the druids who need a round to shift (non-moon druids) also don't get high CR forms. The defensive utility of getting a large pool of HP, even if it costs you a turn to do so, and even if you can't do much else once you've shifted, is significant.

Let's say you take some huge hits from a low Int monster, and are nearly at zero. On your turn you shift and suddenly have a bunch of HP. Then on your subsequent turns you just Dodge. So the monster starts beating on you, and X turns later it finally works through your Dodge and your animal HP....and you are back in the exact position you were before you shifted, except that for X rounds you've tied up a Big Bad, and unlike a lot of spells which do a similar thing:

• The big bad doesn't get a saving throw against the effect
• The effect isn't broken if your friends do damage

So, again, it's not the full action shift that's the problem, it's the full action shift combined with low CR choices.

That's not someone setting out to use the beast form as a combat ability, though - its someone resorting to it as a novel form of healing spell after they're already in trouble. Many fights won't even play out long enough to reach that point.

If you're setting out, at the start of the fight, to engage your beast form as your primary mode of combat for the duration of the fight, you're spending a turn doing that instead of doing something that will directly affect the enemy, there and then. And if you want to get a decent Concentration spell off first so that you're getting at least some use out of your spell slots, then you're into round 3 before you can even begin to do anything with your beast form.

 

[Chaosmancer]

No. 12 features that can be added to the base stat block.

Okay, just to keep the lines of communication clear. The post I was responding to, where I said it was too much, that then kicked off this, was specifically talking about making unique statblocks to cover these concepts.

I understand that you are talking about features, but they were talking about statblocks, and I do not want to confuse those two discussions.

How many parts do you think would be enough?
If we took the most popular 12 or so?

I honestly think the idea of making Wildshape a "build your own statblock" with these features is a bit of a non-starter. Firstly, you are going to have some of these level gated, you aren't going to allow elemental resistance and poisonous at level 1. Since you have level gated them, now you have to make sure you have enough options to have choices at those levels. People don't like "you get 5 choices at level 1 but you get only 1 choice at level 11" because it feels like they were cheated out of choices.

Additionally, you have already put forth that you want them combinable. This means you not only have to balance them against each other to make sure you aren't falling into the Battlemaster trap, but then you have to balance them as combos too. And at that point, the entire design becomes what I saw posted earlier.

Lv X -> Get these features
Lv Y -> Get those features, or combine two features
Lv Z -> Get these over here, or combine two features

Moon Lv X -> Get more
Moon Lv Y -> Combine More
Moon Lv Z -> Get and combine more

Which... is frankly kind of boring design, and it will take so much energy and create so much complexity, when the current design is leaning towards simplicity.

I understand the intent of giving all these special abilities that people will want... but I think in practice it makes the class feature far, far too complex. Because you will never be able to narrow it down to something like six options, it is going to be far too many spinning dials.

 

[Chaosmancer]

One argument I'm just not buying is this thing about the lack of combat utility if you have to spend a full action shifting. That's only true, in my experience, because the druids who need a round to shift (non-moon druids) also don't get high CR forms. The defensive utility of getting a large pool of HP, even if it costs you a turn to do so, and even if you can't do much else once you've shifted, is significant.

Let's say you take some huge hits from a low Int monster, and are nearly at zero. On your turn you shift and suddenly have a bunch of HP. Then on your subsequent turns you just Dodge. So the monster starts beating on you, and X turns later it finally works through your Dodge and your animal HP....and you are back in the exact position you were before you shifted, except that for X rounds you've tied up a Big Bad, and unlike a lot of spells which do a similar thing:

• The big bad doesn't get a saving throw against the effect
• The effect isn't broken if your friends do damage

So, again, it's not the full action shift that's the problem, it's the full action shift combined with low CR choices.

@MarkB hit it directly on the head. This is the same sort of thing that we see with Polymorph. Yes, it can be used as a healing spell where you then dodge and avoid combat, but most people don't get polymorph with that in mind, and polymorph as a heal spell is NOT being used as a primary combat spell. It is being used at the END of combat.

I think a far more accurate look though goes to the Devotion Paladin. Sacred Weapon gave you a non-concentration accuracy buff of between +3 and +5, on a short rest. That seems hugely powerful and impactful... and in practice never used. To the point that the design has shifted, so you can use it as a bonus action.

 

[Captain Panda]

Not really, they've basically solved that issue. The Templates work. They aren't 100% perfect, but they work really well as a baseline concept. Now we just have to make them worth turning into

If this is their baseline, I think I've been turned off of templates entirely. I was fine with the idea in concept until I saw what they meant by templates... which was really just "How can we give you the most useless animal form possible?"

It's not an exaggeration to say that most of the time, in most fights, at most levels, using this new Wild Shape is actively downgrading you at the cost of a resource. It's actually ridiculous anyone thinks it's fine this way. Know who doesn't think it's fine this way? Anyone who mainly plays druids.

 

[Chaosmancer]

If this is their baseline, I think I've been turned off of templates entirely. I was fine with the idea in concept until I saw what they meant by templates... which was really just "How can we give you the most useless animal form possible?"

It's not an exaggeration to say that most of the time, in most fights, at most levels, using this new Wild Shape is actively downgrading you at the cost of a resource. It's actually ridiculous anyone thinks it's fine this way. Know who doesn't think it's fine this way? Anyone who mainly plays druids.

I think you misunderstand. These templates SUCK, I won't deny that. Mechanically they are pointless before level 5, and then they are forced into use for the versions that don't want to use them. The Aquatic form is utterly pointless and should just be consumed by the Land form, leaving only the flying form which stays because Flyby but needs to be increased to 1d6 probably.

However, the concept of templates for the land, sea and sky forms works. The idea of replacing certain stats with your wisdom score works. The idea of your AC being a baseline + wis mod is decent. There are good bones here, there are ideas I don't want them tossing into the trash bin. This execution is insultingly bad, but let's not burn the baby as we boil the bathwater.