Miscellaneous Commentary P2
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Originally posted by Awesomologist:
As a hybrid striker|defender, you really should be trying to do both at the same time, IMO.
Not all defenders or Hybrids have that luxury, but yes you are right. Another title for this thread could also be called "Off-Tanking 101".
Also, for your approval Gel-O:
Originally posted by the_great_gray_skwid:
Enh. Needs more Brent Spiner.
Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:
Updated OP with edited picture. I was going to put that picture up, but hadn't had a chance yet.
I updated the knight, cavalier, and battlemind sections. Battlemind seems like one of the better options for a multidefender party.
Let me know if I am off base with my comments on knights or cavaliers. Cavaliers seem like the worst defender choice for a multidefender party and I think charop considers them the weakest defender in general to begin with. Knights can at least at will push or slow.
Originally posted by Mommy_was_an_Orc:
As a hybrid striker|defender, you really should be trying to do both at the same time, IMO.
Not all defenders or Hybrids have that luxury, but yes you are right. Another title for this thread could also be called "Off-Tanking 101".
Defenders, maybe not. But every optimal hybrid Striker|Defender build ought to have a way of both confirming a mark and doing a striker-like power for at least 3 rounds out of every encounter. If they can't do that, then they're usually someone who has the choice between being a subpar defender or subpar striker.
As an example, a Rogue|Fighter who is a hybrid loses a +1 to hit, +Str to damage on sneak attack(or something else, but DPR is the easiest to measure), and then loses Defender AC from the other side. If he doesn't get the Defender AC, then he's going to be a sucky Defender. If he doesn't get the +1 to hit/Str, comparatively, he's going to be a subpar Striker. To top it off, he's likely losing a +1 to hit/damage from having only an 18 Dex instead of a 20.
Take that Rogue|Fighter, make him get Tempest with his hybrid talent, pick up Kirre's Roar and Rain of Blows, and MC into Warden, and now the character can mark for 3 rounds straight with powers that are either Striker powers from Rogue or very good copies from Fighter. He has a nearly typical Tempest AC. He gets the +1 to hit back and gets part of the +Str back.
Originally posted by warrl:
A multi-defender party (depending on the wording of their main marking mechanic) can really benefit from a Wizard/Mage with Hypnotism, which will force creatures to attack things other than the defender who marked them, starting at level 1.
Great for making a creature violate a Warden's mark. Not so great against the Paladin's mark.
And it could actually make the Assault Swordmage good, and the Ensnaring Swordmage useful.
Originally posted by psk20:
You mention WLMR in the swordmages section, but it doesn't work against marked targets. Were you referring to using it alongside mark-less tanking? Probably worth noting that it will
only work in such cases, and
not against targets affected by your Aegis.
Although my old guide is a bit out of date, there's heaps of stuff you could take out of there. Here's a few fighter powers worth a mention:
Hounding Longarm, Pinning Smash, Vigilant protector, Phalanx Leader, Stalwart Guard, Defender's Gambit, Interposing Shield, Tap and Counterstrike, Strike of the Watchful Guard, Turnabout Riposte - and the Phalanx Warrior feat. They vary in power but they're all relevant to offtanking.
I've got a bunch of things in there for other classes too. One paladin power of note: Discipline the Unruly. It's a daily but it's crazy good for off-tanks. Hillariously if you dump strength and deliver it with a headbutt, you're likely to miss, will still get the encounter-long effect, and can reclaim it for a second use with the Ring of Radiant Storms (only after a milestone).
Reaper's Challenge is also a pretty swanky go-to for offtank swordmages.
Originally posted by warrl:
You mention WLMR in the swordmages section, but it doesn't work against marked targets.
Yes it does work on marked targets, according to the online Compendium.
Marked by somebody else, that is.
Which can be helpful in a party with multiple marking defenders. Particularly if there's someone in the party with a way to make the monster attack you - you're a defender and can take it, you get to hit back, and the defender with the mark gets to hit him too.
Originally posted by Mand12:
He mentions WLR, not WL
MR. The non-master version works just fine on marked targets, and it's a decent amount of damage - almost as much as Divine Challenge.
Edit: Ha, I might have made that up. Regardless, WLR is also useful, and often overlooked. Especially if you also have WLMR.
Originally posted by psk20:
You mention WLMR in the swordmages section, but it doesn't work against marked targets.
Yes it does work on marked targets, according to the online Compendium.
Marked by somebody else, that is.
Which can be helpful in a party with multiple marking defenders. Particularly if there's someone in the party with a way to make the monster attack you - you're a defender and can take it, you get to hit back, and the defender with the mark gets to hit him too.
Oooh, yes, good point, though that's what I meant. I'm fully cognizant of the possibilities as an off-tank that uses mark-less punishment. But it's definitely worth noting that it ONLY works if you don't mark the target now. Check my old guide(x). It's about the exact same thing as this one, has a detailed theoretical analysis, and lists a bazillion powers (though the power list doesn't even include all the options even up to two years ago, there's still a lot of good stuff in there).
He mentions WLR, not WLMR. The non-master version works just fine on marked targets, and it's a decent amount of damage - almost as much as Divine Challenge.
Edit: Ha, I might have made that up. Regardless, WLR is also useful, and often overlooked. Especially if you also have WLMR.
Yeah, for sure, WLR IS good.
Originally posted by EnglishLanguage:
Mellored, the name came from this comment(x) in the original thread. Don't think bobbing heads, think a
bunch of guys swarming a girl on a dance floor who can't get away.
Paladin divine challenges an enemy, attacks, then shifts away. Next round enemy moves next to paladin to attack it. That triggers guardians pounce from the warden, then lightning rush from the battlemind, and then price of cowardice from the paladin.
Fair enough.
Still like EnglishLaunges's "who defends the defender" better though.
Edit: You should use that pic.
Originally posted by lektor:
The level 15 swordmage daily reaper's challenge should probably also be mentioned. Slap it on a monster that someone else has marked and move away making it perma weakened.
Originally posted by mellored:
Glowering Threat (fighter)
Undeniable Challenge* (fighter)
Wildblood warden's second wind*
*requires a mark, but if you go right before an ally, you can apply the penalty and then he can over mark.
Originally posted by Tichrimo:
The big tactical difference for Knights is that their aura is passive (i.e. it applies with no action on their part) and the punishment is an OA (so they can enforce a lot more violations than other defenders).
Very handy for controllers to stick badguys onto or to set up catch-22's with other defenders.
Originally posted by Awesomologist:
He mentions WLR, not WLMR. The non-master version works just fine on marked targets, and it's a decent amount of damage - almost as much as Divine Challenge.
Edit: Ha, I might have made that up. Regardless, WLR is also useful, and often overlooked. Especially if you also have WLMR.
WLMR works if you have 2 Swordmages (or hybrids) or a Swordmage and a Paladin. Paladin or Swordmage A marks with his challenge/aegis and sticks within 5/10, while Swordmage B uses Booming Blade or Fridged Blade to keep the enemy adjacent to him. The enemy should have a hard time moving away to get to the Paladin or Swordmage A (Frigid Blade), possibly taking extra damage (Booming Blade), draw an OA if it uses a ranged attack, or attack Swordmage B drawing WLR, Divine Challenge or Aegis mark, and WLMR.
Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:
I rephrased the WLMR section a little bit yesterday to be more clear. The point of it is that another ally marks from a distance (fighter with reach weapon, paladin with divine challenge, etc) and you attack it, and the enemy is stuck next to you for some reason. Its slowed/proned, immobilized, dazed, etc. Then they have the option of not attacking that round or attacking you with ally's mark punishment and you repeating the at will.
Originally posted by mellored:
I would call undeniable challenge skyblue.
You litterally force enemies to disobey (or not attack). Only thing stopping it from being gold is the mark requirement.
Also, persistant tail could be a very nice thing. Depending on how reaction/interups interact, having it on a knight who uses it on say... a battlemind who lightning rushed.
Originally posted by jaedenkaal:
I can confirm from personal experience that combining grabs of any kind (from a brawler, say) with Just Radiance (Justiciar E11) is flat out hilarious. Our DM hates that prayer with a passion
Originally posted by IxidorRS:
I'm going crazy trying to remember what power was used or if it was maybe a Fortune card ...
A group with two knights and a paladin. The paladin used something on a solo that said, "the next time the target takes damage, it must move it's full speed away from you."
Anybody have a clue what that was?
Anyway, it hurt the solo quite badly, and then the DM made a poor tactical decision (re: me) and didn't move away as a regular move action since it was damaged on a readied action and all the opponenets had just used their oppurtunity action to attack the solo.
Originally posted by psk20:
Fortune-spurned smite.
Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:
I like that one and am going to add it. I really wish there was a common word (something like flee) for these move away from you powers so they would be easier to search for.
I don't have that power on my staladin in my current two defender party because the other defender is a brawler fighter so he almost always has his target grabbed.
Originally posted by the_great_gray_skwid:
This is a really great guide, GO! I'm recommending my party's Paladin take Price of Cowardice, because I can't wait to use that in conjunction with Provoke Overextension...
Originally posted by ryuwizard98:
it seems like you're missing the upgraded version of Come and Get It (Warrior's Urging), and the equivalent powers from the Warden (Warden's Lure) and Paladin (Champion's Call) from the first page.
It's super fun to do Stormheart Warden/Figher - Gladiator Champion - Eternal Seeker and take all of them (minus the paladin one because it's keyed off the wrong stat
) Add in Windy Assault and all you encounter powers, except the Gladiator one, pull everything within several squares closer to you
Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:
I rearranged the OP a little and added this tip:
If your defender ally has long range punishment, through their mark mechanic or otherwise, consider forced movement. Most defenders can push/follow, slide, or pull fairly often. If you have an ally that can punish at range like an assault swordmage, chaladin, lightning rushing battlemind, etc., then forcing the enemy next to you and away from them can help to trigger the punishemnt.
I will the powers ryuwizard98 mentioned when I get the chance in the next few days.
Anyone have any good themes or paragon paths?
Originally posted by the_great_gray_skwid:
Minor point: you list the Swordmage At-Will "Booming Blade" as a multi-target power, when it is single target. "Swordburst" is the Swordmage multi-target At-Will.
Originally posted by ryuwizard98:
I rearranged the OP a little and added this tip:
If your defender ally has long range punishment, through their mark mechanic or otherwise, consider forced movement. Most defenders can push/follow, slide, or pull fairly often. If you have an ally that can punish at range like an assault swordmage, chaladin, lightning rushing battlemind, etc., then forcing the enemy next to you and away from them can help to trigger the punishemnt.
I will the powers ryuwizard98 mentioned when I get the chance in the next few days.
Anyone have any good themes or paragon paths?
Guardian is a super cool theme, and so is Sigil Carver in terms of paragon paths, off the top of my head. Multiclassing Fighter (Battle Awareness) also gives mark-style punishment sans a mark.
Originally posted by IxidorRS:
In any party with a Defender, the Fey Beast Tamer and Sentinel companions can be used to provoke OAs from those enemies that are marked or in a defender's aura. Since it's easy to bring back the companion (as long as you have plenty of surges) this could turn into a very decent strategy. It's a shame you can't take oppurtunity actions on your own turn to punish your beasts movements, but it's a decent choice.
Originally posted by Zathris:
If a DM is seriously taking non-trivial mark punishment for OAing a companion, that DM is an idiot.
Originally posted by furious_kender:
If a DM is seriously taking non-trivial mark punishment for OAing a companion, that DM is an idiot.
Not all DMs meta game. DMs frequently roleplay the enemies, and base tactical decisions on that.
Originally posted by thanerhogar:
When I used to play a Swordmage|Artificer as an offtank/secondary leader in a party with a fighter and battle cleric as its front line, I had lots of fun trading off targets with the fighter. I'd mark the biggest thing in front of him, and then he'd do everything he could without marking it to keep it on him, and try to mark up other things. Then I'd either settle into the backline and throw my drow longknife to buff the strikers with artificer powers, or run off to a secondary group of enemies and do my best non-mark defending. Sword of Sigils is great for shielding swordmages for that.
Battleminds definitely strike me as good multi-defenders. After all, their built in mark punishment is pretty lame, so they spend most of their time working around it anyway. My guess is if you're a Battlemind who doesn't have to play sole defender, it's worth speccing into Brutal Barrage so you can put out good personal damage when there aren't tricks to be done.
Originally posted by TheMalteseFalchion:
Champion of Order PP for Paladins. The 11 Encounter is absolutely brutal, as long as no one re-marks over you, it's basically a 1 target lockdown for the encounter. Wrecks solos and ruins the day for elites. Every encounter.
Edit: And it's Strength + 4. Nice for the accuracy.
Originally posted by sythspawn:
Champion of Order PP for Paladins. The 11 Encounter is absolutely brutal, as long as no one re-marks over you, it's basically a 1 target lockdown for the encounter. Wrecks solos and ruins the day for elites. Every encounter.
Edit: And it's Strength + 4. Nice for the accuracy.
I love that power on my paladin.
Originally posted by Joshua_Randall:
Great thread. Multi-defender parties is something I come across with surprising frequency in LFR.
Here's a paladin power for you to add to the list:
True Nemesis, D15
Lasts the entire encounter and punishes the enemy regardless of who it attacks (you or an ally). Obviously, most useful against solos or tough elites who will last long enough to make it worthwhile.
I also think the guide might benefit from a section that mentions powers that force enemies to attack without necessarily dominating them. You mention Hypnotize; there are a ton more, like Decree of Khirad (warlock D1), Allies to Enemies (battlemind D1), Counfounding Attack (rogue D1).
Searching for the phrase "target makes attack your choice" in the Compendium is a good start.
You know, it would be nice if there was a shorthand for this sort of forced attack, similar to how you proposed "flee" as a shorthand for "moves its speed away from you". More keywords, WotC, more keywords!
Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:
I added your suggestions about "target makes attack your choice"
I am mostly through with the powers for a while, but the warden section still needs work.
I also added a baladin mark punishment build in the last post.
Anyone play the berserker in a multi defender party yet? My book is in the mail to me and I have skimmed through the compendium entry a little.
Originally posted by IxidorRS:
I added your suggestions about "target makes attack your choice"
I am mostly through with the powers for a while, but the warden section still needs work.
I also added a baladin mark punishment build in the last post.
Anyone play the berserker in a multi defender party yet? My book is in the mail to me and I have skimmed through the compendium entry a little.
In a two-defender party, I'd say it's hard not to tell the Berserker to get furious right off and start charging, but if there are a lot of enemies it could be helpful to split the defenders across them. I've not played it yet, but I know it will come up in some upcoming LFR games.
Originally posted by psk20:
If a DM is seriously taking non-trivial mark punishment for OAing a companion, that DM is an idiot.
As Furious Kender said, some DMs roleplay. Elaborating on that, even a smart monster doesn't have perfect information. If the game mechanic in question operates without inflicting the conditional punishment as some kind of effect (e.g. divine challenge does but combat superiority doesn't) on the target, then the monster is unaware of it. I'm too lazy to look up the OA mechanic in question
But if it's one of those, it would be somewhat unreasonable for a DM to avoid provoking at all - enemies aren't omniscient. Once the enemies have learnt about the trick, then it's much more reasonable. And if you're up against trained minions of your arch-nemesis (who has faced you before) or super intelligent foes that use scrying liberally, then maybe it would be reasonable for them to be aware of your tactics too. Otherwise, not so much.
Originally posted by IxidorRS:
I mostly play LFR, and when I run games, I try as hard as I can to stick to the tactics laid out.
Sometimes in the tactics, it specifies that some of the creatures will protect one or several other creatures. If it says this, I am always going to take the oppurtunity attack if a ranged character targets one of them.
Being a DM is not about taking every best tactical choice, it's about making the game fun for your players. If you're players enjoy insanely hard tactically superior team monsters, then by all means do so, but making bad choices as a DM does not make them an idiot, it means they are trying to keep the environment alive in combat as much as in roleplay.
Originally posted by mellored:
I suggest adding
persistant tail.
Lot's of fun stuff can be done with a out of turn move action (knight persistant tail -> battlemind. Enemy attacks wizard, Battlemind starts lightning rush, knight moves, knight get's an attack, Battlemind finishes lightning rush).
Also great for hiding, which can generate even more stuff (like OA's).
Though i wouldn't rate it very high though, since it's takes your move
and immidiate and can be quite difficult to use.
Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:
Bererker section is up. I haven't done any dailies for it yet, but I suspect I will focus on ones that do things like push, slow, or encourage enemies to attack you.
Originally posted by IxidorRS:
Bererker section is up. I haven't done any dailies for it yet, but I suspect I will focus on ones that do things like push, slow, or encourage enemies to attack you.
One of the primal dailies lets you take an OA when a bloodied adjacent enemy shifts.
Originally posted by mellored:
Polearm master is good for lot's of defenders, not just weaponmasters.
And doubly nice with a lighting glaive + mark of storms.[/sblock]