D&D 5E Nightwalker: Really a CR 20?

[Dausuul]

And how is a party coming up against one for the first time going to know that?

They might not, but they hardly need to. A 14th-level necromancer who encounters a single powerful undead is likely to try out Command Undead as a matter of course, unless they've already got a powerful lackey.

How many people play necromancers?

Probably not a lot. So? I didn't say it was going to happen often, just that when it did happen, it would be like Christmas come early.

 

[pogre]

CRs at high levels almost seem more party composition dependent than true measures of the threat level.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

You banish them back to Shadowfell. It's really their only weakness.

It's not their only weakness. They have a -1 Charisma save and a 6 Intelligence.

So, as far as I know, Banishment is a charisma save and, pretty much, every spellcaster takes it. This feels like an easy win if I'm reading this correctly.

 

[Dausuul]

So, as far as I know, Banishment is a charisma save and, pretty much, every spellcaster takes it. This feels like an easy win if I'm reading this correctly.

Well, I was talking about the necromancer's Command Undead ability, where an undead has to make a Charisma saving throw or become your permanent slave. A nightwalker is pretty much the perfect target. Sufficiently low Intelligence that it doesn't get advantage or a chance to break free, its Cha save is a whopping -1, and it has no Legendary Resistance. And even if its stats don't measure up to CR 20, it's still a flying beater that hits hard, can paralyze once or twice per combat, and has over 300 hit points.

But yeah, banishment is a good one too. It would even allow the imprisoned soul to escape.

 

[Zardnaar]

Xanathar's says it's lvl 15 for 6 players, lv 17 for 4 players, all for a medium encounter. Lvl 13 is a bit tougher but still doable, again according to the book.

Though I wouldn't necessarily use it as a solo monster, as it doesn't have any legendary actions and the like. It's more like a Balor, it works as the centre of a setpiece battle but can't be all of it.

Medium encounters are really easy so level 12 or 13 is probably a bit hared so I wasn't to far off. I was thinking of a deadly encounter.

 

[dave2008]

Every since the 3e MM, the Nightcrawler has been one of my favorite monsters....mainly because the artwork was so amazing.

Now looking at the 5e version in Tome of Foes....I feel like it doesn't quite live up to its CR 20.

Just using the ballpark calculations from the DMG:

1) Defensive CR: 14

Very low AC, HP are nothing special. The immunities aren't particularly good at this point.

2) Offensive CR: 18

For this I assumed that every party member is failing its save against this creature, as a DC 21 is very hard to pass. I assumed 2 characters are getting stuck in the aura. Then I assumed the creature uses its finger of doom to get an immediate paralyze, which gives it 3 crits do to coup de grace. The effect only lasts for 1 round, so the 3rd round is just normal attacks.

That puts the average damage output at about 105, with a bump for a strong attack bonus.


So average CR 16. Further, the mental stats on this creature are abysmal. Any caster worth their salt at these level is going to have a mid-level wisdom or charisma check whammy that the creature has basically no hope of fending off. The only thing scary about this creature is the life drain, which can be very nasty. But all in all this creature doesn't bring enough defense to hold on very long, and its offensive....while having some very scary long term effects...is just not cutting the mustard against what level 20's...or even level 16s....bring to the table.


Does anyone have any experience with this creature that would suggest otherwise?

OK, I just checked the numbers and I get a CR 17, but it is hard one as some of its abilities are very crippling with a DC 21 save. Regardless though its magic defense is particularly weak.

 

[Stalker0]

Regardless though its magic defense is particularly weak.

Yeah, I mean heck my level 7 party has DC 15-16 saves, they wouldn't have any trouble polymorphing or banishing this creature.

 

[Zardnaar]

So, as far as I know, Banishment is a charisma save and, pretty much, every spellcaster takes it. This feels like an easy win if I'm reading this correctly.

That and spells that target con are bad/weak, saves that target intelligence or charisma are good.

 

[Quartz]

Regardless though its magic defense is particularly weak.

I disagree. Okay, the Nightwalker doesn't have Spell Resistance but it has Damage Resistance vs acid, cold, fire, lightning, and thunder, and non-magical weapons. It's immune to poison and necrotic damage. It has condition immunities to exhaustion, frightened, grappled, paralysed, petrified, poisoned, prone, and restrained. And it can fly. If you know it's weaknesses then you've got a good chance of quickly beating it; if you don't then you're in trouble.

And I'm not sure that Banishment will get rid of one permanently. It's not an outsider (fiend, celestial, empyrean, etc); it's undead and released on the Prime when someone enters the Negative.

 

[dave2008]

I disagree. Okay, the Nightwalker doesn't have Spell Resistance but it has Damage Resistance vs acid, cold, fire, lightning, and thunder, and non-magical weapons. It's immune to poison and necrotic damage. It has condition immunities to exhaustion, frightened, grappled, paralysed, petrified, poisoned, prone, and restrained. And it can fly. If you know it's weaknesses then you've got a good chance of quickly beating it; if you don't then you're in trouble.

Agreed, but no stun immunity is clearly absent. Makes monks look good

And I'm not sure that Banishment will get rid of one permanently. It's not an outsider (fiend, celestial, empyrean, etc); it's undead and released on the Prime when someone enters the Negative.

Also, what is an item "distasteful" to a Nightwalker? Man, if I ever enforced material components my spellcasters would be screwed!