Non-cliche slavery in fantasy campaign settings?

[Grue]

When fantasy settings do bring up slavery, it's unambiguously evil. It also completely ignores the fact that within the setting itself there are far easier methods of getting field work done than enslaving people. Wizards who can mass summon extraplanar creatures and mass produce golems have existed for thousands of years and are a dime a dozen. If slaves do exist in a fantasy setting, it shouldn't be for soul-crushing manual labor when the setting has those things.

EDIT: A relevant article can be read here. It's about slavery and Pokemon (aka cockfighting seizure monsters).

Seems to be a bit of cart before the horse thinking here... I'm assuming this is a world building thought exercise. Slavery exists(ed) for economic reasons, not as a moral test or some sort of cultural need as a social measuring stick. Other posters have covered why the economics of magic would not negate the utility of slavery in a baseline fantasy setting... making golems or spending money on binding is not cheap. On the filip side using extraordinary magical means to manage and control slaves doesn't fit well for a non-magictech fantasy setting... the lash and the collar are far cheaper tried and true methods (considering the magical training and infrastructure involved). If the economic incentive isn't there the other stuff has no reason to exist.

It's not a pretty institution... I've seen (and used) it both as a major element in something like an Al Qadim setting or just as a background bit of fluff for ancient world style empires. I'm not going to give a hard time to Paladins who don't go to extraordinary means about slavery in their native society (that accepts the institution as a cultural norm and totally economically dependent on it for generations... as long as they uphold their moral code even when dealing with slaves), but I will slap them around a bit if they don't take an opportunity to help slaves from the nearby Orc empire (who use their slaves as both a labor pool and food source).

The reason it is an unambigously evil institution because it is ownership of another person and their legal status is no more important than the master's favorite horse (at best). Servus non habet personam (A slave has no persona ... is not a person). We take laws and rights for granted in our modern era but there were ancients who saw the institution as morally wrong as well.

 

[VelvetViolet]

Slaves are cheaper than magical constructs (much cheaper -- look at the cost of a single flesh golem!) -- mass production is typically beyond the capacity of presented magic.

Similarly, negative reinforcement is cheaper than getting spells / magic items to enforce compliance.

Frank Trollman, Pun-Pun and plenty of others have pretty much debunked that type of thinking as short-sightedly unrealistic. In most non-D&D-derived fantasy fiction, any wizard above 6th-level is the in-universe equivalent of Superman. In most D&D fantasy campaign settings you have hundreds of 20th-level wizards (who are the equivalent of Doctor Fate, Doctor Strange, and Kriemhild Gretchen in terms of sheer world-altering/destroying power) running around one planet and yet the technology level and standard of living stays exactly the same for tens of thousands of years. Fantasy campaign settings are kept in artificial, sanitized renaissance fair conditions, rather than becoming a magical version of Transhuman Space/Eclipse Phase/AT-43/Warhammer 40,000 on steroids, solely because of author fiat.

 

[Grue]

Frank Trollman, Pun-Pun and plenty of others have pretty much debunked that type of thinking as short-sightedly unrealistic. In most non-D&D-derived fantasy fiction, any wizard above 6th-level is the in-universe equivalent of Superman. In most D&D fantasy campaign settings you have hundreds of 20th-level wizards (who are the equivalent of Doctor Fate, Doctor Strange, and Kriemhild Gretchen in terms of sheer world-altering/destroying power) running around one planet and yet the technology level and standard of living stays exactly the same for tens of thousands of years. Fantasy campaign settings are kept in artificial, sanitized renaissance fair conditions, rather than becoming a magical version of Transhuman Space/Eclipse Phase/AT-43/Warhammer 40,000 on steroids, solely because of author fiat.

20th level wizards have concerns other than the betterment of their fellow man (or demi-human, humanoid, thing). A few hundred wizards does not a economy of scale make. Lots of things go into an industrial revolution and a technological base replicable by tiny handful of the population (who are busy killing monsters and each other) is a choke point for stasis and not progress...

As far a 'stuck in renaissance' level tech levels... we're used to fairly quick technologically progress in our lifetimes but that was never the historical experience of our ancestors. I suspect he majority of the fantasy rpg market isn't particularly interested in playing stone age D&D or eclipse phase transhuman D&D and that has more to do with setting expectations of fantasy escapism than any poorly thought out author fiat.

 

[Croesus]

Frank Trollman, Pun-Pun and plenty of others have pretty much debunked that type of thinking as short-sightedly unrealistic. In most non-D&D-derived fantasy fiction, any wizard above 6th-level is the in-universe equivalent of Superman. In most D&D fantasy campaign settings you have hundreds of 20th-level wizards (who are the equivalent of Doctor Fate, Doctor Strange, and Kriemhild Gretchen in terms of sheer world-altering/destroying power) running around one planet and yet the technology level and standard of living stays exactly the same for tens of thousands of years. Fantasy campaign settings are kept in artificial, sanitized renaissance fair conditions, rather than becoming a magical version of Transhuman Space/Eclipse Phase/AT-43/Warhammer 40,000 on steroids, solely because of author fiat.

You're once again making a broad generalization about campaigns which I don't believe is backed by any data. As a single data point, I've never played in a campaign where "you have hundreds of 20th-level wizards". I can't think of a single published campaign that made such a statement, though perhaps some exist.

And even if magic is so prevalent, it won't necessarily replace mundane means. A real world example: We possess the technology to replace virtually all electrical power generation with solar cells. So why haven't we done so? Because it would be prohibitively expensive, and because any current industry that would be displaced would use its economic and political power to preserve its current status. Simply because something can be done does not guarantee that it will be done.

If your point is that it is possible to design a hi-tech campaign using magic as technology, I agree. If your point is that it would be possible to design such a campaign with a form of relatively benign slavery, I again agree. However, I'm not at all convinced that such elements are automatic in a fantasy or D&D campaign. And given the cruelty common to slavery throughout human history, I think running a campaign with that element would likely be more trouble than its worth. YMMV.

 

[Nagol]

Frank Trollman, Pun-Pun and plenty of others have pretty much debunked that type of thinking as short-sightedly unrealistic. In most non-D&D-derived fantasy fiction, any wizard above 6th-level is the in-universe equivalent of Superman. In most D&D fantasy campaign settings you have hundreds of 20th-level wizards (who are the equivalent of Doctor Fate, Doctor Strange, and Kriemhild Gretchen in terms of sheer world-altering/destroying power) running around one planet and yet the technology level and standard of living stays exactly the same for tens of thousands of years. Fantasy campaign settings are kept in artificial, sanitized renaissance fair conditions, rather than becoming a magical version of Transhuman Space/Eclipse Phase/AT-43/Warhammer 40,000 on steroids, solely because of author fiat.

Optimisation artefacts like Pun-pun aside, there is precious little in D&D that alters society on a macro scale outside of low-level clerical magic (which should have a massive impact).

So you have a ratio of a few hundred really powerful people and millions of normals. What happens? Do the super-beings work selflessly to raise the rest or do they fight amongst themselves, attend their own whims, or otherwise ignore the mass of humanity? How much effort does the typical super-being put into building up society and then maintaining that advancement against loss or subversion?

The normals do not need the super-beings to continue society; the super-beings literally need nothing from the normals. And the costs to build magical replacements still exist. A flesh golems costs over 10,000 gp to create in 3.X and takes a month where the super-being isn't working on something else. 12 per year from dedicated effort is hardly mass-production. How many people can be maintained in servitude for that price? How many golems will the super-beings churn out to better society because they feel like it? How many are needed just for periodic replacement?

 

[VelvetViolet]

20th-level wizards are reality warpers whose power is limited only by what spells they know. There exist a virtually infinite number of spells that can do pretty much anything imaginable. New spells have to come from somewhere. There's probably a spell to instantly create golems, or speed up time so that construction takes only a few seconds, or a spell to turn dirt into gold, etc. If wizards can create new kinds of monsters, then it should be possible to create living, self-replicating factories that churn out golems. Von Neumann machines, grey goo, etc. There's also Wish, which can duplicate the effects of all lower-level spells. When you get into epic levels then everything pretty much goes out the window.

Furthermore, 20th-level wizards have literally superhuman intelligence and probably think much differently than we do. Do you honestly believe that someone as smart or smarter than the smartest people who ever lived on Earth, who can use magic with purely arbitrary limitations, is not going to actually use their vast intelligence to dramatically alter the world around them forever and will just go on pointless adventures where they kill monsters and loot corpses? Much as with Seed AIs modifying their own code and find ways to circumvent any and all laws imposed upon them by their programmers, that wizard is going to find ways around the laws of magic and will optimize in order to make reality their playground.

Even going by the much more limited magic in Harry Potter (though SpaceBattles has optimized the heck out of that to build flying battle fortresses), any sufficiently intelligent person can still create a world where no one can trust their perception of reality.

 

[Celebrim]

Frank Trollman, Pun-Pun and plenty of others...

None of which exist or even could exist in my setting. Few games allow the full breadth of broken material necessary to pull off those sort of things.

...have pretty much debunked that type of thinking as short-sightedly unrealistic. In most non-D&D-derived fantasy fiction, any wizard above 6th-level is the in-universe equivalent of Superman. In most D&D fantasy campaign settings you have hundreds of 20th-level wizards (who are the equivalent of Doctor Fate, Doctor Strange, and Kriemhild Gretchen in terms of sheer world-altering/destroying power) running around one planet and yet the technology level and standard of living stays exactly the same for tens of thousands of years.

You keep spouting off generalities like that with no real facts to back them up.

My homebrew world of Korrel has so far as I know exactly 3 20th+ level wizards on the whole planet - the Lord of Dee, the Master of the Mystic Isle, and the Head of the Provost Council. The first one lives in a tower and no one has seen anything from him but his spells in 300 years, the second lives on an isle that is said to be intangible to all those he doesn't want is visitors and is surrounded by a perpetual magic fog and he's scarcely less often seen, and the third is a lich that never leaves the University catacombs and spends most of his time slowly decaying and torpid. My current campaign features a bad guy who is a 17th level wizard - Keeropus the Many Hearted. He's the first Archmage that's been seen in the east of Sartha (think Asia) in 80 years, since Halivar of the Many Colors died. In the nation of Amalteen that the PC's just left, the highest level character in the whole nation (100,000+ citizens) was 10th level. The nation they've just journeyed to, mighty Talernga, the Pearl of the Storm Coast, one of the greatest city states on the whole planet, after the bad guy, the two highest level characters are 14th level. One is a 70 year old human priestess of the God of Beauty who has no physical stat above 6 and ~30 hit points, and the other is a 700 year old Elven expert who is the kings' mayor of the palace.

We've been playing for almost 4 years IRL now, and the PC's are 6th level. During that time I've had 8 or 9 PC deaths. Only one PC has survived to this point from the original party of 6 1st level characters. The world is just not covered up with high level characters. In fact, in my game, the 6th level PC party constitutes high level characters, and none of them have the ability to craft anything fancier than a smoke grenade.

Fantasy campaign settings are kept in artificial, sanitized renaissance fair conditions, rather than becoming a magical version of Transhuman Space/Eclipse Phase/AT-43/Warhammer 40,000 on steroids, solely because of author fiat.

About 5000 years ago, in the age of the Art Mages, the Time of Wonders, there were hundreds of 20th level characters. It looked roughly like magic powered science fiction, I'm sure. The beginning of this campaign involved the bad guys accidently setting of a malfunctioning 'mass driver' and unleashing a tsunami that devastated half the country. Anyway, as often happens the humans decided they wanted to usurp the heavens (and the hells for that matter) from the Gods. The resulting war - the Iconoclasm - devastated Heaven and Earth (in the Hells, you couldn't really tell the difference). In a desperate bid to win the war, the leaders of the Art Mages create the Apocolapse Word of Power (Power Word: Planet Killer) and threatened to use it. The gods called their bluff; they weren't bluffing. To prevent them from speaking it on Korrel and destroying what the unknown creator had made (none of the gods have the power to make the world), at the moment the word was to be spoken the united gods ripped a continent off the planet and hurled it in to the Astral Plane.

Since that time, both the gods and the surviving mortals have a rather skeptical view of magic in the hands of mortals. In many parts of the world, sorcerers are killed as children. Those that survive are treated as monsters. Bards are little better off, but only because they've hidden themselves away in secret colleges so well that 'spell singing' is widely regarded by most right thinking wizards as being merely a myth. Shamans are generally burned as witches in most human lands and must survive on the sufferance of their local community. One bad crop, and they'll likely to find torches and pitchforks at their door. In all parts of the world, wizards must make their presence known to magistrates or face prosecution as witches. The clerics and champions of the gods vigorously seek out those that might be practicing the dark arts, and any mage that gets close to learning the secrets of art magic may well find the gods personally arranging his death. For this reason, most high level mages become strict recluses, figuring that as long as they don't intervene in mortals daily affairs, the gods will tolerate their personal quests.

All this happened because of author fiat, it's true. But don't tell me that Korrel maintains a fairly low tech level as a result of me handwaving away the implications of the setting.

 

[VelvetViolet]

We're getting off topic fast.

Anyway, I find it highly unlikely that no one in the infinite multiverse has figured out how to cheaply, quickly, and efficiently mass produce constructs to perform all menial labor. It stands to reason that this technology fell into the hands of a proud warrior race that considers it dishonorable to harm the weak, those who cannot defend themselves and those who are unworthy opponents, and this proud warrior race also practices slavery (all of which perfectly describes the non-heretical worshipers of the Warhammer god Khorne, who is big on honor). Because said race considers it dishonorable to harm the weak, they wouldn't be treating their slaves like dirt. Once they transition to all-construct labor, the slaves would be free to move entirely into the much less soul-crushing service and maintenance industry. And bam, you have a society with slavery that doesn't automatically imply horrific abuse of the slaves.

Of course if I'm feeling lazy I could use a form of slavery based on pokemon, where the slave race are immortal god-like monstrosities that could effortlessly turn their slavers into chunky salsa with a mere thought but serve them out of a bizarre biological need to serve. The only thing keeping them from literally blowing up the planet is that the slavers do not understand the concept of combat that isn't friendly cockfighting between their slaves.

 

[Obryn]

I for one play D&D to do some heroic stuff, so I'm perfectly happy there's no in-depth discussion of the finer nuances of the ownership of other sentient beings in most published settings. YMMV, of course, but I'm firmly in the "owning people is bad and fighting slavers is a good time" camp.

I'm sure there's plenty of homebrew and small publisher stuff that fills that niche, if that's what floats your boat.

 

[Zardnaar]

Mulhorrand (sp?) in the Realms was a neo Egyptian theocracy and the primary LG church/head of pantheons duties included tending to the slaves. Slaves were not treated very well in ancient times but neither were the citizens either in most cases. The Mameluks are a real life example of a slave caste that ends up ruling and they were elite troops that defeated the Mongols.