D&D 5E Non-stealth surprise

[Hriston]

That is an interesting take on the semantics of the phrase "notice a threat". My understanding of the usual semantics is that, in order to be said to have noticed a threat at a particular point in time, the guards would have to be aware at that time that the entity that they have "noticed" is a threat. In this scenario, this seems to me to be in question, barring further information about the scenario. That is, from what we know, it might be certainly true, certainly false, or uncertain and therefore, as others have suggested, subject to some kind of check or contest.

However, the way you word your comment says to me that for you it is sufficient that the guards are aware of the party and that they would know the party are a threat if they (the guards) were omniscient. Is that it, or are you saying that without any doubt the guards become aware of the threat so quickly that surprise is precluded? If the latter, then I don't understand how anyone is ever surprised under any circumstances.

It's the former. It plays out at the table like this:
The DM describes the environment: A group of six guards are escorting you towards the king's chamber for an audience.
The player of the Barbarian declares an action: Screw this! I attack the nearest guard.
Now while the guards aren't omniscient, the DM is, and, at that point, the DM knows the barbarian is a threat to the guards. The DM determines that since neither side was trying to be stealthy, no one is surprised.
The DM describes the result of the player's action: The guards lower their spears in response to the oncoming attack. Make a DEX check everyone. We're rolling initiative.

 

[weldon]

I think "surprised" as a game rule is different than "unexpected."

If you rule the guards are surprised, you are basically saying that they are standing there with their mouths gaping for a full six seconds while the PC draws a weapon, moves next to them, and wails on them. They don't even get to react. If the PC draws a weapon, and moves to attack, it seems entirely reasonable that the guards are not "surprised" and get to act and use their reaction if the PC goes first in initiative. That rule of surprised totally makes sense to me if the PC attacks from hiding (ranged attack from the bushes).

If you think the PCs actions are 'unexpected' (which I don't think exists as a game rule) then I would maybe rule that the PC gets advantage on the initiative roll to go with the "rule of cool" and recognize the PC for doing something interesting.

 

[Krachek]

A deception vs insight check.

 

[BoldItalic]

Meh.

Unless you mean allow it, but never actually do it.

It might be enough to point out to the players that if the precedent is established, it can cut both ways.

Barbarian: "I suddenly pull out my axe and make to attack the nearest guard. I reckon all the guards will be surprised, won't they?"
DM: "Are you sure you want to do that?"

 

[Flamestrike]

I don't see how it makes a lick of difference. If anyone rolls higher than the Barbarian, they still can't act before the Barbarian (or whatever element is surprising the group), they may have their reactions available, as opposed to those who rolled lower than the Barbarian, but I'm just not seeing that as a meaningful distinction.

How are you not seeing that as a meaningful distinction? Your barbarian rolls 15 for initiative. The surprised knight rolls 16 for initiative.

The surprised knight can now use his parry reaction on round one when he is surprised. He has his turn on initiative count 16 of round 1, can't take any actions or movement, and then his turn ends. Next goes the barbarian who attacks him on initiative count 15, and our knight parries his attack.

If the surprised Knight had rolled a 14 or less for initiative, he could not parry the barbarians attack on round one when he is surprised.

You are arbitrarily and for absolutely no reason depriving characters of their ability to take reactions. If a monk roll higher on his initiative check even when he is surprised he can deflect arrows. Battle masters can parry or riposte. Wizards can cast shield or counterspell. Anyone with the defensive duelist feat can attempt to parry the attack. A bard that roll higher can influence the attack roll with cutting words.

And I mean it's not like you're saving any time because you're going to have everyone roll initiative after the attack anyway.

Just roll initiative. Then resolve actions in turn order.

I mean it's bad enough in this example that you would even let the barbarian attack with surprise. If I was escorting some NPC Prisoners out of a dungeon and you had them attack me with surprise, I would leave your game.

Making attack rolls outside of the combat sequence just makes it even worse.

I mean I just sit there and get attacked while you grin at me over the dungeon master screen and there is not a thing I can do about it.

I had some odious neckbeard do this to me in an AL game. A set of animated armour got surprise on me. Even though I clearly stated I was approaching it with sword drawn warily.

Said neck beard then proceeded to declare me 'surprised' regardless of the fact that I was clearly anticipating combat and was ready for it, and rolled an attack on me before initiative was even declared. He then called for initiative... and happily advised me that I couldn't act on turn one because I was surprised. Finally on round three he allowed me to have a turn after the monster had attacked me no less than three times.

Even worse I was playing a warlock and had access to hellish rebuke.

The same thing happened in another game only this time with an ogre.

Along with Stealth, the surprise rules are one rule Dungeon Masters get hopelessly wrong over and over and over again.

The rules arent hard. Read them - Particularly if you are going to referee or Dungeon Master the game. Here; I will even explain them for you:- Roll initiative. If when initiative is rolled one or more combatants are totally unaware of any potential threats (totally caught with their pants down), then they are surprised and cannot take any actions or move on turn one. After their turn one ends they cease being surprised and can take reactions as normal (including for the remainder of round one). They also are now also immune to the assassinate ability of any assassins in your party for the rest of this combat.

 

[Satyrn]

It might be enough to point out to the players that if the precedent is established, it can cut both ways.

Barbarian: "I suddenly pull out my axe and make to attack the nearest guard. I reckon all the guards will be surprised, won't they?"
DM: "Are you sure you want to do that?"

Yeah, but why would you? Letting the barbarian outright kill a guard might be funbut having the barbarian getting outright killed most likely would not be.


I have occasionally ruled that a player's action just outright kills. But I will never do the opposite.

 

[Caliban]

I think "surprised" as a game rule is different than "unexpected."

I don't. Or rather, I don't think the difference matters as far as the game is concerned. Unexpected isn't a defined game term.

And "Surprised" doesn't mean you stand around a full six seconds unable to react - you stand around until your initiative count, then you are able to react. You could be surprised for only a second, if you have a higher initiative than the guy who surprised you. You'll lose your first round of attacks, but that's it. You'll still be able to react to his attacks, and you'll attack before him on the next round.

If you get surprised and roll poorly for initiative, then yes - you were caught completely flat footed and you are going to have to suck up two rounds of attacks before you get to act.

 

[Kalshane]

While I'm good with allowing subterfuge to gain the drop on someone rather than Stealth in certain circumstances, I would never flat out decide someone drawing a weapon and attacking would automatically grant surprise like they're the Spanish Inquisition (or worse, allow them to act outside of initiative.)

If you allow players to automatically go first/gain surprise/whatever if they declare an intent to attack first, expect them to start constantly declaring that they're attacking during non-combat situations that they think might devolve into combat so they're guaranteed to "get the drop" on their foes.

 

[Caliban]

While I'm good with allowing subterfuge to gain the drop on someone rather than Stealth in certain circumstances, I would never flat out decide someone drawing a weapon and attacking would automatically grant surprise like they're the Spanish Inquisition (or worse, allow them to act outside of initiative.)

If you allow players to automatically go first/gain surprise/whatever if they declare an intent to attack first, expect them to start constantly declaring that they're attacking during non-combat situations that they think might devolve into combat so they're guaranteed to "get the drop" on their foes.

True. Barring special circumstances, I wouldn't do it either. I doubt most DM's would.

The "Deception vs. Insight" check mentioned by several people is probably the most appropriate default check for this type of situation, but as always the DM is the final arbiter. If the DM doesn't think the barbarian was making any attempt at concealing from the guards that he intends to draw weapons and attack, there may be no opposed check. Just an initiative roll (Barbarians aren't generally known for their subtlety, after all).

 

[BoldItalic]

Yeah, but why would you? Letting the barbarian outright kill a guard might be funbut having the barbarian getting outright killed most likely would not be.

I have occasionally ruled that a player's action just outright kills. But I will never do the opposite.

Because it reduces the game to meaninglessness.

"I slaughter the army of orcs singlehanded."
"Great. Go up 10 levels."
"Did I take any damage?"
"No, the orcs did a group attack roll of 17 against your AC of 10 but I gave them disadvantage so they all missed."
"Great. I enter the Tower of Doom, kill the boss Neromancer and take the Orb of Ultimate Power from the secret room."
"Well done, you've completed the adventure. You get 200 million gp and you are made King Of All The Realms."

It may be fun, but it's not D&D.