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Of Mooks, Plot Armor, and ttRPGs

There is also a question of challenge, in that you don't generally want the optimization problem to be actually trivial, where the player choice is so clear as not to be one. This is why I despise generic skill DCs, especially when paired with skill-as-approach: if the DC can't vary, and the distance to completion of my goal isn't related to the action I'm taking, then the optimization case is always "attempt to declare my highest modifier," which is trivial and dull.
Which is why the fiction matters. Without fictional input to constrain what works or is optimal you have either 'spam best action all day or you need to do what @loverdrive proposed, make a game which is complete in its own right and doesn't tell you anything about the fiction and vice versa.
 

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Pedantic

Legend
Only if there was a plan to begin with.

Consider a hypothetical situation: the players are rooting out a spy that assassinated their ally. They have a list of, say, eight names of people who were seen around the victim at the night of the murder. They don't know anything else yet, so they decide to kick off the process by picking one at random and breaking into his house to search for clues, and then repeat the process.

Hooray! It just so happened that the guy they randomly picked turned out to be the spy! Yeah, their plan worked, but I don't think if that was particularly satisfying.
I think that's irrelevant. That's the inverse of "a risk went against us." It's not meaningfully connected to gamist satisfaction, or if it is, it's in the meta level of preferring randomness be distributed differently.
 

loverdrive

Prophet of the profane (She/Her)
I think that's irrelevant. That's the inverse of "a risk went against us." It's not meaningfully connected to gamist satisfaction, or if it is, it's in the meta level of preferring randomness be distributed differently.
I don't think it's irrelevant.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't gamism about deriving satisfaction from getting your skills tested (to the point where more, harder challenges can be considered are reward in of itself)? I don't see how succeding by a mere coincidence scratches that itch.
 

kenada

Legend
Supporter
Only if there was a plan to begin with.

Consider a hypothetical situation: the players are rooting out a spy that assassinated their ally. They have a list of, say, eight names of people who were seen around the victim at the night of the murder. They don't know anything else yet, so they decide to kick off the process by picking one at random and breaking into his house to search for clues, and then repeat the process.

Hooray! It just so happened that the guy they randomly picked turned out to be the spy! Yeah, their plan worked, but I don't think if that was particularly satisfying.
That sounds like a busted scenario for gamists because of the effect luck can have, but I can see the argument that it’s a form of anticlimax for them. You thought you were going to get a game, but whoops you accidentally won already. That’s different from what I had in mind (hence my mention of rigging), but it’s a fair point.
 

Pedantic

Legend
Which is why the fiction matters. Without fictional input to constrain what works or is optimal you have either 'spam best action all day or you need to do what @loverdrive proposed, make a game which is complete in its own right and doesn't tell you anything about the fiction and vice versa.
I think we draw very different conclusions from this. I generally contend this is why simulation is necessary, or you're stuck doing what @loverdrive describes or you can't describe an impartial board state.
I don't think it's irrelevant.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't gamism about deriving satisfaction from getting your skills tested (to the point where more, harder challenges can be considered are reward in of itself)? I don't see how succeding by a mere coincidence scratches that itch.
I think you're making a mistake in placing the satisfaction in resolution instead of declaration. It's not particularly important how the actions play out, in the same way it's not particularly important who actually wins a board game. Instead, we all agree that we will try to win, because that gives context to make decisions in, and the pleasure comes in using that context and a limited system to make those decisions as best as possible.

So, in that example the gamist satisfaction is already achieved by the time the situation resolves. The players either evaluated all courses of action and determined that breaking and entering was the best/only viable means of getting information, or that the amount of information gained on any one individual this way would be worth the risk of getting nothing if they picked the wrong candidate. The payoff of that decision gives context they can use to go back and evaluate their choices (did we actually take the best line of play?) but is irrelevant to whether those choices were satisfying.

Perhaps what I'm saying is that "challenge" and "struggle" are not so directly related. I've played something like 4000 hours of Slay the Spire, I have heuristics and algorithms down, I don't actually read the cards so much as glance at the silhouettes of the artwork and rapidly make choices, and I can consistently defeat the highest ascension levels. I still keep playing it, because the decisions are really, really good, even if I am quite confident I can find a line of play that works, and I can tell you about good runs and bad runs and find satisfaction in both.
 

niklinna

satisfied?
That sounds like a busted scenario for gamists because of the effect luck can have, but I can see the argument that it’s a form of anticlimax for them. You thought you were going to get a game, but whoops you accidentally won already. That’s different from what I had in mind (hence my mention of rigging), but it’s a fair point.
A lottery is, technically, a kind of game after all! But it is definitely not a game of skill.
 

niklinna

satisfied?
Only if there was a plan to begin with.

Consider a hypothetical situation: the players are rooting out a spy that assassinated their ally. They have a list of, say, eight names of people who were seen around the victim at the night of the murder. They don't know anything else yet, so they decide to kick off the process by picking one at random and breaking into his house to search for clues, and then repeat the process.

Hooray! It just so happened that the guy they randomly picked turned out to be the spy! Yeah, their plan worked, but I don't think if that was particularly satisfying.
On the other hand, if every house they could break into has an alarm system, or a guard dog, or a nosy neighbor who'll call the cops, even if they strike oil on the first house, they can have a satisfying challenge. But then you have the opposite problem, when they have to slog through all eight houses before finding the evidence. Lotteries. Feh. In longer games, of course, there might be interesting things to find in most of the houses...but then you get the players doing the equivalent of pixel scrubbing.

And of course, things are never so simple as an example scenario. Three suspects would be well within the tolerances of most players, I'd guess, in the last-house situation. The players might have other options than to blindly pull at straws (although that is certainly something investigators face in reality...wanna roleplay a stakeout in real time? :) ). But you could add a phase where the players tail the suspects first, glossing over the moment-by-moment and just inform them whether they are doing anything warranting more...personal investigation, and then the players know which houses are the most likely to yield results.

Finding that sweet spot between exhaustive detail and glossing over is one of the big challenges in roleplaying games. Certainly not insurmountable. I've been mostly happy with how Blades in the Dark handles such things. Not always, but mostly.

Edit: Minor clarification.
 
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kenada

Legend
Supporter
I think we draw very different conclusions from this. I generally contend this is why simulation is necessary, or you're stuck doing what @loverdrive describes or you can't describe an impartial board state.
It should be possible to maintain the integrity of the board state as long as one is transparent about the effect actions will have and communicates when the board state changes. That should be sufficient information to make an informed decision. What simulation does is provide a common understanding of how things work. If that understanding can be provided through other means, then simulation is not necessary.

That’s not to say no to simulation ever. I like having some physics-ness to my mechanics even if the numbers are what they are to make the gamism go brrr. The fact that MP in my homebrew system also says something about how the world works helps keep the cognitive load down of the game mechanics. Does it use MP? It’s magical. Is it magical? It uses MP. Any consequences for deviating from the normal usage of MP then becomes an emergent property of that physics-ness. I think that’s neat.
 
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Pedantic

Legend
That sounds like a busted scenario for gamists because of the effect luck can have, but I can see the argument that it’s a form of anticlimax for them. You thought you were going to get a game, but whoops you accidentally won already. That’s different from what I had in mind (hence my mention of rigging), but it’s a fair point.
That's the meta-concern about randomness I was making. The precise placement and application of randomness is a huge, complicated issue in board game design, in a way it just isn't in RPGs. If anything, they tend to treat it backward; in board games it's generally randomness in establishing the initial board state, or in giving the player access to more options (like drawing cards off a deck) that is preferred, unless the game is explicitly about gambling, in which case randomness in resolution (rolling dice to see who's ship survives the attack) is possible. Even then, skilled play in a lot of those games is generally about mitigating randomness if at all possible.

It should be possible to maintain the integrity of the board state as long as one is transparent about the effect actions will have and communicates when the board state changes. That should be sufficient information to make an informed decision. What simulation does is provide a common understanding of how things work. If that understanding can be provided through other means, then simulation is not necessary.
I think I agree with you, but this very much sounds like the "design a board game, and then describe fiction around it" approach. You have to do a lot of work if you want the board state to keep presenting interesting choices and remain consistent. I don't know your game obviously, but the problem I usually see is either that the board state presents trivial optimization problems (which are generally not even considered as optimization problems for narrative reasons) or you lose a degree of optimization by not allowing the players to avoid failure points. That is, the player's declarations are fixed in relative time, thus that whatever they do will have an equivalent impact (or if we're talking variable completion, an equivalent magnitude impact) on the outcome. Consider trying to break into a castle using skill checks based on objective DCs, vs. a flat skill challenge to do the same thing. It is possible in the former case to present a course of action that calls for more or less rolls, and not in the second, even if the resulting fiction between the two is otherwise identical (admittedly a really unlikely and probably contrived scenario).

The appeal of a simulationist model is that actions naturally move the player different distances toward their objective, and do so without any risk of someone tweaking the board state, which gives you at least two axes to plan lines of play along: how many failures points, chance of success at any given point, and then likely more (resource expenditure, severity of board state at failure, etc.).
That’s not to say no to simulation ever. I like having some physics-ness to my mechanics even if the numbers are what they are to make the gamism go brrr. The fact that MP in my homebrew system also says something about how the world works helps keep the cognitive load down of the game mechanics. Does it use MP? It’s magical. Is it magical? It uses MP. Any consequences for deviating from the normal usage of MP then becomes an emergent property of that physics-ness. I think that’s neat.
Yeah, this relates to that broad church view of simulation I was pushing earlier. It doesn't matter how the world works, as long as the workings of the world are consistent and consistently explained; we don't have to simulate reality, we just need an impartial and consistent world (to a reasonable degree of abstraction).
 
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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Only if there was a plan to begin with.

Consider a hypothetical situation: the players are rooting out a spy that assassinated their ally. They have a list of, say, eight names of people who were seen around the victim at the night of the murder. They don't know anything else yet, so they decide to kick off the process by picking one at random and breaking into his house to search for clues, and then repeat the process.

Hooray! It just so happened that the guy they randomly picked turned out to be the spy! Yeah, their plan worked, but I don't think if that was particularly satisfying.
It'd be satisfying to me - we did what we were trying to do without having to fuss around too much to do it, and now we can go on and do somehting else.

It's called luck, and it's very realistic.
 

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