Of Mooks, Plot Armor, and ttRPGs

Thomas Shey

Legend
I like focusing on the player skill aspect because it sidesteps the thorny issue of trying to define what constitutes a game. It also applies more broadly. Even when the system doesn’t contribute much, one can still get something out of the experience based on how skillfully it’s approached.

I think yours is a fair preference, and either way seems to suggest a gap in a model that defines gamism based on the presence of (arguably rigged) fair challenges.

Well, do keep in mind "fair challenge" was viewed in the context of the tools at hand for the players and characters. If players were either particularly sharp or dull with predictable results from same, that was assumed fine. What wasn't was doing things that, say, required players to chronically reach beyond what seemed reasonable or alternatively assumed they just weren't putting in any effort.

(You can very much argue that, at least as a ethos, this utterly ignored the quality and/or focus of a given player group; in practice in probably didn't but, as I noted, gamist preference was underrepresented in RGFA so its hard to say).
 

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Pedantic

Legend
I think you should learn more about the state of the art in 4e SCs c2012... Having run 1000s of them, I can unequivocally state that they are non-trivial and work quite well. I haven't created a 'new mini game' in many years, it's unnecessary.

And this is the perfect illustration! You're calling a simple mapping of SC mechanics problematic but then expound how a whole mini game of running around finding which house things are hidden in to better somehow. All while the flaw in it is obvious.

And yet the SC solution lets you do all of this, the PCs can even switch strategies and it will all 'just work's.
I honestly don't want to litigate skill challenges again here. I have never seen a compelling argument for their gameplay that doesn't rely on narrative engagement or ease of use for the GM, both of which have no bearing on the engagement loop I'm talking about here.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
It wasn’t when I first responded, but the conversation evolved. It seemed like like different definitions of gamism were in use, so I went back to look at what GDS had to say on it to see if I could reconcile them. Alas, apparently not.

Well, always keep in mind that of the three agendas, Gamism was the most underbaked in the RGFA form; I've mentioned above twice, but its important to remember that it wasn't initially developed by, well, gamists, but by a combination of dramatists and simulationists who had decided after being confronted on the matter (I would tend to say "grudgingly" but that may be me being uncharitable here) that those of us with a gamist orientation really were doing something that wasn't about narrative or world focus primarily. But there were really only three of us pushing the point (me, Brian Gleichman and Brad Szonze) and of the three, only Gleichman was particularly purist about it, so there wasn't as much momentum to get it refined as the other two (even though I maintain to this day that its likely there were more people who were recognizably gamist than particularly simulationist in the wild, but what was present and discussing things in the newsgroup was what was.)
 

kenada

Legend
Supporter
Well, always keep in mind that of the three agendas, Gamism was the most underbaked in the RGFA form; I've mentioned above twice, but its important to remember that it wasn't initially developed by, well, gamists, but by a combination of dramatists and simulationists who had decided after being confronted on the matter (I would tend to say "grudgingly" but that may be me being uncharitable here) that those of us with a gamist orientation really were doing something that wasn't about narrative or world focus primarily. But there were really only three of us pushing the point (me, Brian Gleichman and Brad Szonze) and of the three, only Gleichman was particularly purist about it, so there wasn't as much momentum to get it refined as the other two (even though I maintain to this day that its likely there were more people who were recognizably gamist than particularly simulationist in the wild, but what was present and discussing things in the newsgroup was what was.)
The additional context is appreciated. I’ve been reading through the old FAQs. I’m not fond of the challenge-based model that’s suggested because it feels like it’s set up protect play from “bad” gamism.

See above however. I'm suspecting that sort of "fix it after the fact because it doesn't make sense" would go across badly.
The above seems to cover the rest of the conversation, but I still wanted to touch on this one separately still.

It’s going to depend on the specifics of the scenario and how the fix is approached. If things aren’t working as intended, correcting the game state is respecting the integrity of the game. It’s like when someone makes a mistake on their turn in a board game, and they’re allowed to correct it. Maybe they shouldn’t have made the mistake in the first place, but are you getting the best competition if you don’t allow them to correct it? (Obviously, this can be abused, so there may need to be some discretion exercised.)
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
The additional context is appreciated. I’ve been reading through the old FAQs. I’m not fond of the challenge-based model that’s suggested because it feels like it’s set up protect play from “bad” gamism.

Well, given it was put together initially by people who were probably at least a little suspicious of gamism in general...

The above seems to cover the rest of the conversation, but I still wanted to touch on this one separately still.

It’s going to depend on the specifics of the scenario and how the fix is approached. If things aren’t working as intended, correcting the game state is respecting the integrity of the game. It’s like when someone makes a mistake on their turn in a board game, and they’re allowed to correct it. Maybe they shouldn’t have made the mistake in the first place, but are you getting the best competition if you don’t allow them to correct it? (Obviously, this can be abused, so there may need to be some discretion exercised.)

But of course some people think that's bad gameplay, too; that mistakes are as much a part of gameplay as anything else. And keep in mind just how appallingly adversarial a lot of the default GM/player culture at the time was. Strongly gamist players weren't particularly likely to view the GM's motives generously doing that (with simulationists, it at least was going to turn on how valid they perceived the GM's take on whether the mistake was genuinely one the opposition shouldn't be making, but one of the brittle points in simulationist approaches has always been where there's disagreements about what is "valid" as an assumption about the setting).
 

Pedantic

Legend
Maybe they shouldn’t have made the mistake in the first place, but are you getting the best competition if you don’t allow them to correct it? (Obviously, this can be abused, so there may need to be some discretion exercised.)
There's competing schools of thought here and competing designs. Guards of Atlantis, for example, is a miserable slog of you play with full information, full analysis and space for correction. The designer is very clear that the same is meant to be played with computer decisions and mistakes, and the game plays better and faster with them.

On the other hand, Tash Kalar specifically calls out players trying out several turns and working through their various outcomes before committing to one. Generally I'm more sympathetic to the table communally working out whether a strategy is sound, unless the game is specifically designed not to support that.
 
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No. Having been there when it was developed, I can promise you that the primary purpose was to create an imagined space that was consistent and seemed to represent world coherence; any Gamist benefits were entirely coincidental, and in fact the initial Simulationists were pretty irritated if Gamist concerns got in the way (once the setting was already chosen, which might well be chosen to make sure those two were in some alignment, but once that was done GAmism could just wait in the back of the car).

@pemerton points out how this appears to index Gamism (which is how I've historically seen GDS's S expressed in the past; hence my post). I'd also say that I feel that there is a not-insignificant amount of confounding evidence...at least that I've seen...in design, commentary, and meta-commentary over the years... @Pedantic certainly seems to be expressing G (challenge-based) priorities and S priorities that are not independent from one another...and there are large swaths of old school D&D cohorts that occupy that same philosophical space.

But, again, like I outlined in my post, I'm no expert on the particulars of Simulationist priorities and I'm perfectly happy being corrected on the matter. So lets go with what you're saying here; GDS's model for S was intended to be independent of either G or D and its purpose was exclusively "to create an imagined space that was consistent and seemed to represent world coherence" (as you've written above).

If your purpose in Simulation is to create an imagined space that is consistent and represents world coherence while expressly being independent from Game priorities, then I have to assume that S objective is to fullfill immersionist priorities as in "the experiential quality of being there."

So, if that is true, can you break down how that is meaningfully at odds with the GNS The Right to Dream essay which speaks directly to priorities around experiential consistency of exploration and internal logic of <whatever is being modelled and causally related/coupled>? I'd rather not get sidetracked about how you personally feel about Edwards or his model overall so I hope we can stay on this specific point.

If GDS's S is independent of G (challenge-based priorities), then how is it meaningfully different from GNS's S most fundamental essay (which pegs it as preoccupation with the priorities listed above which are alleged to be independent from G & N priorities)? Or do you agree with The Right to Dream essay (forget the rest of it...lets focus on this) and that Edwards had this core component of S correct in this essay?

If not...why...and what then is GDS's S...doing for the players and the experience of play?
 
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I honestly don't want to litigate skill challenges again here. I have never seen a compelling argument for their gameplay that doesn't rely on narrative engagement or ease of use for the GM, both of which have no bearing on the engagement loop I'm talking about here.
ALL challenge in RPGs, with the possible exception of combat in a few systems, relies on fiction as it's core, otherwise you have no constraints! Much of it relies on actual narrative/dramatic elements to hold it together, SC rules or not. So fiction is an inescapable element! Moreover my argument rests equally on their quality as game, so I find your dismissal unconvincing, though revealing. I don't disagree with you on all points, certainly but this is definitely one.
 

pemerton

Legend
there are different ways of providing consistency. This can be done by way of process - eg a carefully worked out set of resolution rules, a carefully worked out set of content-introduction rules (such as ecologically sound random encounter tables) - or by way of GM decision-making as things go along. The process approach can be consistent with gamist play, for the reasons you give - I say "can be", not "will be" because the processes may be so convoluted (imagine an interlocking system of yearly, monthly, daily and turn-by-turn event/encounter charts) that they are not in practice solvable. The GM decision-making approach tends not to be suitable for gamist play, again for the reasons you give - especially if some of the consistency that is maintained applies directly to the PCs and hence to the players' action declarations (eg "No one has ever broken in here in 100 years, therefore your solution that you've just come up with must have already been tried and failed, therefore I'm now retrofitting on an in-fiction reason why it fails" - I think someone upthread mentioned more-or-less this exact example).
And here we go . . .

a GDS Simulationist wouldn't hesitate to patch a hole if it didn't seem like a logical flaw in the problem so much as just something he hadn't thought about. That'd have been pretty bad form for a pure Gamist. If a simulationist of the stripe back then decided that any active opponents involved would have thought of it even if he didn't, he wouldn't even blink about addressing it--and a lot of the people playing with that view wouldn't think anything of it, because to them not doing so would have violated the setting integrity.

This is directly relevant to @Manbearcat's question, just upthread, about how GDS relates to GNS.

The "Right to Dream" essay identifies multiple varieties of simulationist play. The two most interesting are purist-for-system, which - as I noted upthread - puts system first; and high concept, which - as I also noted upthread - puts colour and fiction (character, setting and/or situation) first, and system last.

This distinction captures different attitudes towards the role of the GM in ensuring consistency in the fiction - in the "simulation". In high concept play, this is par for the course. And of course in some approaches that sort of GM role extends all the way to what many RPGers would regard as railroading. I think there is, therefore, an inevitably high degree of tension between high concept approaches and gamist priorities. This is borne out by the fact that terms like "munchkin", "powergamer", "optimiser" (used pejoratively) and the like are all part of the lexcion of high concept RPGing, that gained prominence in what, also upthread, I called the "high concept convergence" of the 1980s/90s.

Purist for system, on the other hand, aspires to have GM intervention minimised, as a special case of having participant intervention minimised. If it has to happen, it is in the "corrective" spirit that @kenada described upthread. Because this requires players being on-board with such correction, it is going to butt heads with really serious gamist priorities. But I know from experience it can be consistent with players who like to use their clever manipulation of the system to "win", but can recognise when a result is not the proper outgrowth of system but rather a result of system malfunction or mis-design. (I can report, from experience, that this comes up a lot in Rolemaster play when the players are hardcore wargamers - which many in my group were - and which is being played using purist-for-system rather than high concept priorities, which was the case for my group.)

The "Right to Dream" essay makes this observation about the demandingness of purist-for-system aspirations:

In this sort of design, there's no possible excuse for any imperfections, including scale-derived breakdowns of the fundamental point/probability relationships. The system must be cleanly and at the service of the element(s) being emphasized, in strictly in-game-world terms. A good one is elegant, consistent, applicable to anything that happens in play, and clear about its outcomes. It also has to have points of contact at any scale for any conceivable thing. It cannot contain patch-rules to correct for inconsistencies; consistency is the essence of quality.

As I see it, Purist for System design is a tall, tall order. It's arguably the hardest design spec in all of role-playing.​

And here are some remarks about how that design aspiration interacts with gamist priorities:

Another common problem is rules-bloat, which usually creeps into Simulationist game text as a form of anti-Gamist defense. I suggest that adding more layers to character creation is a poor idea, as it only introduces more potential points of broken Currency. I suggest instead that the most effective "defense" is to avoid ratios in one's layering, as in Godlike. More generally, beyond a certain point, anti-Gamist defensive rules design has a negative effect: given an increased number rules and punctilios, players simply punt in terms of understanding the system, and the GM has to "be" the entire game. This is exceptionally difficult in games like Rolemaster or GURPS (perhaps less so in Dread or Call of Cthulhu). Therefore the effort - to preserve the integrity of the Simulationist experience - often backfires as play gets harder and more full of speed-bumps rather than easier.

Rules-bloat can also result from the design and writing process itself. Cogitating about in-game causes can transform itself, at the keyboard, into a sort of Exploration of its own, which results in very elaborate rules-sets for situational modifiers, encumbrance, movement, technology, prices of things, none of which is related to actual play of the game with actual people. During the writing process, "what if" meets "but also" and breeds tons of situational rules modifiers. When this effect hits Currency, you get tons of layering in the form of prerequisites and nuances of described competency (e.g. Awful vs. Really Bad vs. Mediocre). The result is often what I like to call Paying to Suck, which is to say that character creation includes paying many points merely for the character to be bad or barely-adequate at things.

My recommendation is to know and value the virtues of Simulationist play, specifically refined toward the goals of a particular subset (as listed or make up your own), and to drive toward them with gusto. Don't spin your wheels defending your design against some other form of play.​

I think this is consistent with what I've written above, and with my experience in how gamist and simulationist priorities need to be reconciled among the participants for purist-for-system play to work.

And for me - and to circle back to @Manbearcat's question - it shows that the difference between GDS and GNS isn't necessarily where their boundaries fall, but rather the sort of analysis they put forward. I don't see anything in the GDS account that allows me to explain how gamist and simulationist priorities interact, and can perhaps be reconciled, except ad hoc intuitions. Whereas the "Right to Dream" essay, by setting out to analyse actual processes of play, the role of participants, the importance (or not) of mechanical systems, etc, actually provides the analytical tools for understanding why practically all gamists will bump into problems with high concept approaches; while some - those who can ameliorate their hardcore instincts and grasp what is going in purist-for-system aspirations - can enjoy a system like RM and even cooperate in the ongoing patch-work that play will inevitably reveal it to need; while the hardcore will break any feasible purist-for-system design!
 

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