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OGL and GSL - can someone clarify the differences?

pemerton

Legend
Rules can't be copyrighted.
Even when lifted wholesale?
The phrasing and typesetting can be copyrighted.
As I said upthread, I teach law - including private law - but am not an IP expert.

I think that the boundary between permissibly restating rules, which cannot themselves be the subject of copyright and impermissibly producing a work which is derivative of some rules text published by WotC, is not a bright line.

To give one example: the publishers of OSRIC are on record as saying that they believe their product to be legal. Clark Peterson, on the other hand - an experienced commercial lawyer who also runs Necromancer Games - is on record as saying that he believes OSRIC to be infringing and unethical. (I also understand that Kenzer has expressed similar views, although I haven't read them myself.)

I'm not qualified to have a view either way on this particular question. But to step back into a little bit of asbstraction, part of what I think gives rise to the difficulty is that, if a clone is going to be a good enough clone to be fully recognisable for what it is (so it not only has the same rules, but has similar headings, a similar internal layout and logic, etc) then the claim that it is a different text that overlaps only in respect of the rules it expresses becomes less plausible, and the claim that it is in fact a copying or derivative text becomes more plausible. And I think that this plausibility will only be increased if - as is likely - the clone in question contains not only rules statments, but elements of fiction as well, such as what sorts of characters paladins or wizards are, or what sorts of personalities gnomes and halflings have.

Matt James colleague Rob Bodine (who posts as Frylock) has expressed the view here that a 3rd party could publish a non-infringing character builder. As Frylock is an American IP lawyer and I'm not even an Australian IP lawyer, I'm not going to question his professional opinion. But I do feel that it might be tricky to present this hypothetical character builder in a way that made it marketable to the customers (who would want it to plug easily into their existing knowledge of 4e and of 4e PC building) while being careful not to use any WotC copyrighted text, or misuse any WotC trademarks.

Which is not a matter of copyright; it's a matter of contract. If you sign on to the GSL and take advantage of it (that is, marking your product with the Compatibility Logo, being allowed to market it as 4E compatible, etc.), you're bound by its terms.
It's actually an element both of contract and copyright, I think. As I indicated in my first post on this thread, part of the consideration given by a licensee under the GSL is a promise to forebear from doing certain stuff, including replication of text from 4e rulebooks. So there is a contractual obligation not to do that. But some of that text is also protected by copyright, so some of the obligation not to reproduce it also arises from copyright law rather than the contract. (In practical terms, the relevance of this in Australian law would pertain to the remedies available to WotC in the event of a breach. Because American contract law is, as I understand it, more willing to award wrongfully-made profits as part of the measure of contractual damages, the relevance in American law may well be less.)

If you have ambitions of doing 4E stuff, follow the rules of the GSL
On the thread I linked to in my earlier post, this is being discussed in some detail. In general, the advice you give here is relevant only for those who want to market their works using WotC's trademarks - such as the 4e D&D logo. For those who want to publish adventures with 4e stats, but don't want to republish any of WotC's text (other perhaps than very prosaic rules text which contains no fiction and is therefore not going to attract copyright protection), then the GSL doesn't really add anything. For those who want to publish a clone, then the GSL is of course right out, and all the issues I referred to above come into play.
 
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Viking Bastard

Adventurer
It's how you express/explain/write those rules, not the rules themselves.

Ok. Seems straightforward enough (although I'm sure that through legal wibbly-wobbly, it's not).

Honestly, you should look through the forums, because there's been an awful lot of talk over the past decade about what the OGL is, how you can use the OGL, and all sorts of arguments about copyright.

I know how the OGL worked. I used to play 3e but then left gaming. I have recently returned to the game and trying to catch up. I usually get the gist of it by reading around, but sometimes require clarification.

I wasn't looking for a copyright discussion, as such.

As for the whole "clone" thing... just because they're out there doesn't mean they're "legal".

[...]

If you have ambitions of doing 4E stuff...

I was thinking about Hackmaster and such, unrelated to the OGL or GSL. I'm not nursing any game design ambitions.

But all this is just my opinion and observation. Sorry if it's not as helpful as it could be, but it's sort of a topic that been round and round more than a few times.

I expected as much, but I don't have search; and it's often better to just ask and get clear answers, rather than wade through the old discussions that produced those answers.
 

S'mon

Legend
As for the whole "clone" thing... just because they're out there doesn't mean they're "legal". What people have done is produced a set of rules that they _think_ won't violate IP/Copyright; however there hasn't actually been a legal challenge to it that I'm aware of. I'm not a lawyer and I'm not aware of anyone that is a lawyer that's argued this in a court system. Unless and until it is, what you've got at best is a bunch of people that think they can do something (but don't actually have any legal background), some people that might have consulted with a lawyer somewhere who thinks it's probably ok as long as certain measures are taken, and a very few lawyers that are gamers and think it's probably ok as long as certain measures are taken but since they don't specialise in IP and the laws vary depending on the country they're not really comfortable talking about it except in broad terms.

To my knowledge, the author of OSRIC, the first OGL retro-clone, did take actual legal advice on contract & copyright from an actual UK lawyer. I can't say if all retro-clones are fully protected under the OGL, although any infringements look pretty minimal, plus the OGL has a notice-and-rectify clause, but OSRIC at least looks legally watertight to me (I teach contract & copyright LLB & postgraduate at a UK University).
 



frankthedm

First Post
To my knowledge, the author of OSRIC, the first OGL retro-clone, did take actual legal advice on contract & copyright from an actual UK lawyer. I can't say if all retro-clones are fully protected under the OGL, although any infringements look pretty minimal, plus the OGL has a notice-and-rectify clause, but OSRIC at least looks legally watertight to me (I teach contract & copyright LLB & postgraduate at a UK University).
Here was a related quote...
Originally Posted by PapersAndPaychecks
I was, in fact, never in direct correspondence with WOTC legal.

I did receive an email from Rich Redman, then Brand Licensing Manager, but not a lawyer. He wanted me to cease distribution of OSRIC. His grounds were that OSRIC was not compliant with the D20 license.

I wrote back to Mr Redman and explained that OSRIC didn't pretend to be compliant with the D20 license, and was in fact entirely reliant on the OGL.

Mr Redman apologised for not adequately doing his homework and then said he wanted me to cease distribution of OSRIC anyway. His basic point was the duck test: OSRIC looks like 1e, it quacks like 1e, so in his view it must be wrong to distribute it.

I replied highlighting various points of fact and various representations WOTC had already made, both in public and in private correspondence.

Mr Redman said this was beyond him and he would get WOTC legal to contact me.

This was in August 2006 and I'm still waiting for their email. I suspect they've figured it out, though, and will never pursue the matter.

The subtext behind OSRIC, and all the other retro-clones, is around computer gaming. You see, there's a duck test there too: a lot of computer games are, in their underlying concepts and algorithms, very similar.

Representatives of computer games companies are very interested in the possibility of a precedent that would establish, in US copyright law, exactly what constitutes a "rule" and what constitutes "artistic presentation". Any lawsuit involving OSRIC and WOTC could establish important precedents.

What that would almost certainly mean is an awful lot of money in amicus curiae. I don't particularly want to go there, and I think it likely that WOTC don't want to go there either.
 
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