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Old school/new school definitions -- meaningless?

Vigilance

Explorer
Quasqueton said:
I started this thread to discuss adventure design, not class design. Let's not confuse the issue.

Quasqueton

Sheesh.

I guess the cops are out on this thread. My point was that I think adventure design has gone through the same evolution in 3e, fed by the same sorts of player feedback and designer preferences that slowly become more "codified" (though unofficially) over time.
 

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grodog

Hero
I think that old school can, for better or worse, be broken down into publishing eras. For me, that helps to differentiate between DL1 Dragons of Desolation, A1 Slave Pits of Undercity, and G1 Steading of the Hill Giant Chief. While one of the weaknesses of an era-based breakdown is that it doesn't take into account the individual and group variations of game play---how DM1 and players1 run/play G1 may be much more or much less "old school" than how DM2 and players2 run play it---it does at least (for me, again), provide a solid baseline within which you can group the adventure modules based on the styles in which they were written, and the likely styles of play they were written to address.

Some threads on this over on Dragonsfoot @ http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14504 and at Knights & Knaves Alehouse @ http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=41 may have some useful thoughts worth considering in the context of this discussion too.

In the K&K "D&D Generation Gap" thread, I posted some thoughts from the DF thread that I think, for me at least, define how I break old school eras down. I did modify the quotation a little to provide a bit more context here:

grodog @ DF said:
Gnarley Bones said:
I think ra's post is food for thought, but I find the division between "generations" to be rather arbitrary. 1983? That seems a bit early for a shift, IMHO.

FWIW, GB, I think 1983 is probably too late vs. too early to clearly start to slice out the D&D gamer generations. The timeline in my mind's eye would read something like this:

  • early OD&D 1972-1975: basically, D&D before TSR modules were produced
  • early OD&D/AD&D with modules: 1976-1980 (before the 1981 reprints of G1-3 and D1-2 began; I'm lumping the Holmes basic in here as transitional to OD&D/AD&D and therefore closer to those than to Basic D&D)
  • Basic D&D 1981-82: Moldvay/Cook Basic/Expert set era
  • Basic D&D 1983+: Mentzer BECMI set era
  • middle AD&D 1981-1983: AD&D up through the MM2 and Legends & Lore
  • later ADD& 1984+: AD&D after MM2/L&L, advent of DL, etc.

Note that the O/AD&D and Basic timelines exist in parallel, so the whole as listed above isn't 100% sequential.

In general, the characteristics I would use to distinguish members of those generations would be what rules they started playing with and/or still use today---I'm pretty uncaring on the historicity front: if you prefer to play with your OD&D rules, then you fall in the second OD&D/AD&D generation, even if you're only 15 years old today.

Secondarily, I break out the first two OD&D/AD&D groups based on modules in part because the original folks had nothing to work with except the rules (until Wee Warriors and Judges Guild, and eventually TSR, hopped onto the modules bandwagon): the first group created anything they played, the second group had module options that the first group didn't.

I distinguish the Basic Sets vs. OD&D/AD&D because the Basic Sets were clearly entry-level products geared toward simplifying the game for kids and teenagers.

My middle and later AD&D eras dividing points fall into when TSR began to start reprinting material (MM2 has a lot of monsters from modules, including the plethora from S3 that should have remained as alien creatures unique to S3 vs. becoming standard monsters), and MM2 and L&L start the orange-spine publishing era. Later AD&D comes after those books, which close out the middle era for me; DragonLance figures heavily into that time period, as does the move toward the FR as the new campaign setting.

Useful? Not sure really, due to the idea of individual variation within gameplay, but do think this timeline can be used to classify adventure modules' historical "old schoolness" based on when they first appeared.
 

ThirdWizard

First Post
Personally, I think "old school" modules as... well... modular ones! 2E came along and then adventures began being tied to campaign settings. You'd have tyour FR adventures, your PS adventures, your DS adventures, and so on. I think there was still some generic stuff out there, but really what defined 2E seemed to be the mass of campaign settings, and the adventures that went along with them. You couldn't even call them modules anymore.

Along with this change, you get highly complicated plotlines that interlock with already defined worlds. Dungeon crawls become less important as AD&D moves into the territory of more roleplaying heavy adventures. Things get less and less arbitrary, they have to make sense within the setting. Less and less are the things such as eat the tomato soup and gain +1 Strenght but eat the vegitable soup and lose -1 Constitution.

So, going back to the old school approach would be modules designed to be put anywhere, whose focus is more on dungeon than explicit roleplaying encounters, and whose encounters are more whimical.
 

Mythmere1

First Post
I think the term "old school" is useful, but it's one of those terms with a huge number of meanings that doesn't hold up well when it's broken down.

To me, as someone who still plays the old rules themselves, "old school" is mainly about two things (no, this is not an edition war point, and yes, this does tie in to actual adventure design): the older rules had actual rules for only a couple of types of situations: combat being the primary area, of course. Later games tend to have rules that cover a broader spectrum of character activity; jumping, intimidating people, etc. That's not a value judgment, just a distinction between the scope of the rules.

So, old school adventure design in one sense is an adventure designed for the smaller scope of rules. In later editions, this probably isn't a desirable feature, because it means you're ignoring several aspects of the game that players have worked hard to prepare for; they have made choices to sacrifice some skills for the ones that the GM is now "writing out of the picture" to work with smaller rules scope. So, writing an old-school style adventure in this respect for a later edition would screw the players in a way they shouldn't be screwed, because it's a bait and switch on decisions they legitimately made in the game system.

Another form of "old school" is the idea of focusing upon challenging the player rather than the character. Again, this folds back into the fact that the older rules "cover" less activity than the later versions. Again, not a value judgment, and again, so people know where I'm coming from, I prefer the old style. Take a skill like "spot." At one end of the spectrum, you've got the 1e method of - if you don't say you're looking, you don't see it. Obviously, that doesn't mean that you don't notice a table, but if one of the legs of the table is shorter than the others, probably the GM isn't going to let the players find it out unless they're doing something that might make the table wobble. In a later edition, this screws a player who chose to max his "spot" skill (ie, the player skill is front-loaded to character creation). I think the more an adventure emphasizes player observations and thinking, the more "old school" it is - but here, there's room for a later edition to legitimately balance the newer and broader rule-set with the older style. The newer rulesets allow numbers to be put on virtually everything, and there is an argument that using the rules well and to their fullest extent would justify or even mandate that virtually everything be rolled rather than determined by the problem-solving abilities of the players at the table. Obviously, no one actually plays this way - the game wouldn't be any fun. But by phrasing it this way, the spectrum becomes apparent. So, to be more "old school" in an adventure that's still fair to players under the new rules would mean finding ways to emphasize skill at the gaming table more than skill at building a character. Giving bonuses to skill checks based on actions, for example.

Now, that's actually how most adventures in the later editions are really done, so this might seem circular. But to make it older school, I think you'd simulate the language required for the "no checks exist" adventure, and then use checks only if the player skill grants access to them. I'll try and illustrate, because I realize I'm not entirely clear:

Current "normal" approach: There is a draft. Any character investigating the source of the draft has a +2 to spot that there is an odd pattern of stones around a vent hole. Further searching has a DC of 14 to find that one of the stones can be pressed inward.

More old-school style of 3e: There is a draft. Characters investigating it will find an odd pattern of stones around a vent shaft, shaped like an eagle in profile. The eye-stone can be pressed inward. Any player specifically examining the stones for such things may make a search check at DC 20. Any character trying to press stones will discover this automatically.

My 3e language may be rusty, but the point is that the "automatic" detection is played down to be much harder, but it's automatic success if the player actually thinks to mess around with stuff and says specifically what he's doing.

It's a pretty broad topic, here.. ;)
 

Ourph

First Post
Vigilance said:
To me, old school adventure design is largely something I know when I see it. The Dungeon Crawl Classic series is definitely old school design.

Whereas my experience with the DCC series has been exactly the opposite. IMO the DCC modules are merely "new school" adventures in "old school" packaging.

I'm absolutely of the opinion that the term "old school" isn't a particularly useful descriptor. If the definition of "old school" includes such wildly divergent products as the Dungeon Geomorphs sets, the Monster and Treasure Assortments, the Dragonlance series of adventures and the late AD&D Survival Guides then it's really nothing more than a way of saying "everything printed before 19XX"; which, as Quasqueton points out, isn't necessarily an indicator of any particular style or level of quality.
 

Nomad4life

First Post
Although I agree that “old school” may be a difficult term to pin down, I think it is a far cry from "meaningless." Perhaps "old school" and "new school" are best thought of as collections of abstract tendencies, rather than anything concrete.

For example, if a GM were to say that he was going to run an “old school” adventure, I have a general idea of what he means; more emphasis on exploration and combat. Less emphasis on game balance and plot cohesion. Events and encounters in an “old school” dungeon might be close in proximity and yet completely unrelated. However, I would expect that events and encounters in a “new school” model dungeon might be interconnected somehow. Neither style is “better.” Just different.

So like I was saying, even though I can’t provide reasonable definitions of “old school” or “new school” the terms do have meaning to me. Like “good” and “evil” they are relative terms- perhaps having no meaning by themselves, but holding value in contrast to something else. (EDIT: perhaps the terms "modern" and "post-modern" would make a better comparison?)
 
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Ourph

First Post
Nomad4life said:
So like I was saying, even though I can’t provide reasonable definitions of “old school” or “new school” the terms do have meaning to me.

Emphasis added.

That's exactly my point. Everyone has an idea of what "old school" means to them but if that meaning isn't at least somewhat shared by the vast majority of others (and it's definitely not) the term is useless as a form of communication.

It's fine to have a personal meaning attached to the term, but if you tell me you're running an "old school" campaign and I'm thinking "Dungeon Geomorphs + M&T Assortment in a site-based, freeform, explore-the-dungeon type adventure using the three original little books" and you're thinking "I'm going to run the Dragonlance series using the Rules Cyclopedia" then we are, in fact, miscommunicating, because those two games don't meet the same expectations.

So "meaningless" is probably an inapt term. The fact is, "old school" has too many meanings. So it can be misleading or useless, but I guess technically not "meaningless".
 

diaglo

Adventurer
Ourph said:
Whereas my experience with the DCC series has been exactly the opposite. IMO the DCC modules are merely "new school" adventures in "old school" packaging.

i'm kinda in agreement. Goodman Games DCCs: they ain't really old skool modules. but they are as close to it as you are gonna get without making your own. real old skool means designing and making your own dungeon for your own campaign and players.

another example often brought up is Necromancer for ToH3, Wilderlands, etc... they convert old skool to new skool. which i ain't completely down with but at least someone is paying homage to the building blocks.
 

francisca

I got dice older than you.
Ourph said:
Emphasis added.

That's exactly my point. Everyone has an idea of what "old school" means to them but if that meaning isn't at least somewhat shared by the vast majority of others (and it's definitely not) the term is useless as a form of communication.

It's fine to have a personal meaning attached to the term, but if you tell me you're running an "old school" campaign and I'm thinking "Dungeon Geomorphs + M&T Assortment in a site-based, freeform, explore-the-dungeon type adventure using the three original little books" and you're thinking "I'm going to run the Dragonlance series using the Rules Cyclopedia" then we are, in fact, miscommunicating, because those two games don't meet the same expectations.

So "meaningless" is probably an inapt term. The fact is, "old school" has too many meanings. So it can be misleading or useless, but I guess technically not "meaningless".

Yeah, that's what I tried and failed to say. Thanks for putting it more succinctly.
 

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