• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Old school/new school definitions -- meaningless?

TheAuldGrump

First Post
Old school is not wondering why the dungeon is there, rather it is wondering what you will find next!

While I am not an old school gamer (just an old gamer) I can understand the allure of such games. :)

The Auld Grump
 

log in or register to remove this ad

RFisher

Explorer
With modules, yes, I do think "old school" is often meaningless. The classic modules were quite a diverse lot, & many recent modules that seek "old school" credibility don't feel very "old school" to me. (& occasionally a recent module that doesn't seek "old school" credibility feels "old school" to me.)

I think "old school" is more meaningful when applied to the rule systems themselves, though even then, do any two people really share the same idea of what it means?
 

seskis281

First Post
The term is certainly problematic and more individualized as has been noted here, so as someone who claims "old school" preference I will only note what I think makes me fit this category and try to identify the central elements that really bind us or separate us:

1. It's neither bad nor good, but there is an age difference at play here - I consider myself "old school" for one because I remember days before FLGSs and Amazon where we (in the late 70's and early 80's) would go to Walden Books or other local bookstores looking for those shrink-wrapped Modules, and had to save up for the "expensive" $25-$29 books like the DM's guide. Yes, this is a bit of ego here... but there is a separation with those who remember TSR and Judges Guild really as the only games in town and the mass of material that came later.

2. Basic medieval setting vs. others. I would say "Old Schoolers" liked the medieval as basis for what was known as "D&D," and liked their other forms separated (i.e. Gamma World or Star Frontiers). My impression is that "new schoolers" like much wilder variety and mixes of genres in their games.

3. Slow, varied character progression vs. fast, uniform player progression. "Old schoolers" liked the varied XP charts and slow progress (it could take months of games to go to 5th or 6th level, and characters advanced differently), while "new schoolers" want the fastest routes to 20th level and decry varied leveling.

4. Archetypes vs. Fantasy "Superheroes." My own preference and what I think applies to many is the idea that PC's were classic fantasy archetypes - the Fighter, the Thief, the Magic User... and enjoyed creating the differences in a game out of WHO they were rather than WHAT they could do. My look at 3.x and other modern RPG systems (and I played 3.0 for 4 years) would indicate that the emphasis is on heavily empowering characters to be "Fantasy Superheroes," able to very quickly display enormous feats (pun intended) of skill and combat. All this isn't to say one is better or "right," these are just the different points of view. WotC very smartly has marketed towards the latter, and looks to continue to do so with its future. This particular comparison is also the spark of difference when discussing Artwork under these terms.

5. Rules light vs. Rules heavy - I think is the defining separation - those who prefer having broad strokes to fill in (and the one common denominator for all the "old school" modules was that they were NOT as absolutely specific to setting, even when nominally set in Greyhawk, and always needed a DM's own additions) vs. those who want lots of "crunch," detail and specifics. I play C&C, and recently came across a review that stated "unlike the claim on the cover, this is not a complete system.... rules have not been provided for any number of situations." This in a nutshell is the real difference - for "new schoolers" do not see the "essential rules only" approach as "complete," and want as much as possible provided.

I also think some "old schoolers" tended to use or not use miniatures, and if they did these were more as accessories rather than integral parts of the campaign (unless playing Chainmail). I have played for over 25 years, and have never used miniatures. "New schoolers" (again just my opinion) find it hard to not see how to run a combat without a table-top layout and the minatures. This is what the rumored 4.0 is going to probably gear towards, if the leaks prove true.

Again, take all this with a grain of salt - my opinion is that you should enjoy the game whatever way you wish to play, and my own preferences are simply that - my own. I claim to be "old school," but that doesn't mean to imply "better" or "right," and the folly we fall into is somehow wanting to find vindication that any one way of RPGing is somehow "superior" or more proper than another. I've seen thread after thread bashing Gary Gygax, some of them quite mean and vitriolic, just because he's said he doesn't like modern D&D. Does it matter if you do? It's almost as if people want to hear the more well-known personalities (especially the "father" of D&D) validate that what they are doing is "correct" - which is a little ridiculous. Stop worrying about what everyone else thinks and RPG in whatever form you enjoy.

It is, after all, a game . :cool:
 

Hussar

Legend
Treebore said:
2. Basic medieval setting vs. others. I would say "Old Schoolers" liked the medieval as basis for what was known as "D&D," and liked their other forms separated (i.e. Gamma World or Star Frontiers). My impression is that "new schoolers" like much wilder variety and mixes of genres in their games.

Huh? Considering there were Boot Hill and Gamma World conversions IN the DMG, I have no idea where this is coming from. There were numerous modules with mixed genre such as White Plume Mountain and Land Beyond the Magic Mirror.

It wasn't until 2e, with Dragonlance (which I know started in 1e, but, right at the cusp) that the idea of solidly medieval campaign settings seemed to get cemented into the game. The Known World had biplanes and six gun wands. Greyhawk had all sorts of other goodies.
 

Quasqueton said:
You could put the “old school style” marketing gimmick on The Standing Stones and people would find points in it that are “old school”. You could take the “old school style” marketing gimmick off of Aerie of the Crow God and people would point out things in it that they dislike about the “new school style”.

The Standing Stones is "old school", IMHO. I say that because:
1) I like it.
2) It fits in my campaign, which is the same setting since 1996 (using 1st Edition rules then, 3.5 now).
3) It has a "classical" or "historical" feel to it. It's got Celtic, old British elements like the Standing Stones, Saithnar's barrow mound, and a village.
4) I had to think about this one, but I think it's the key to what old school means: It's understandable to someone who isn't a D&D fanatic. It's not just a bunch of D&D stats, but stuff that makes sense independently of D&D. It's main monsters are a ghost, a type of undead warlord, some guardians for him, some furry clawed forest creatures, and some people. It's not about half-dragon prestige class yadda yadda.

"Old school" adventures should have that "makes sense even if you don't memorize all the bizarre rules" aspect to them:
Keep on the Borderlands = frontier castle threatened by feuding orcs and their like in nearby caves
G1/G2/G3 = giants attacking the frontier, you need to go tell them: "all your base are belong to us"
 


seskis281 said:
2. Basic medieval setting vs. others. I would say "Old Schoolers" liked the medieval as basis for what was known as "D&D," and liked their other forms separated (i.e. Gamma World or Star Frontiers). My impression is that "new schoolers" like much wilder variety and mixes of genres in their games.

I agree, though I'd say the basis of "old school" thinking is medieval fantasy, mixed with ideas from Westerns, sci-fi, and kung fu movies.

"New school" thinking is more sui generis, from the gaming rules or settings themselves.

That is, "old school" module design starts with "pirates, ghosts, smugglers, hmmm, what fun can I have with them?". "New school" starts with "half-dragon githyanki are cool, and a psionic one would be a really cool, what other crunch can I bring in" or "what happens if gnome airship crashes in Sharn"?


seskis281 said:
4. Archetypes vs. Fantasy "Superheroes." My own preference and what I think applies to many is the idea that PC's were classic fantasy archetypes - the Fighter, the Thief, the Magic User... and enjoyed creating the differences in a game out of WHO they were rather than WHAT they could do. My look at 3.x and other modern RPG systems (and I played 3.0 for 4 years) would indicate that the emphasis is on heavily empowering characters to be "Fantasy Superheroes," able to very quickly display enormous feats (pun intended) of skill and combat. All this isn't to say one is better or "right," these are just the different points of view. WotC very smartly has marketed towards the latter, and looks to continue to do so with its future. This particular comparison is also the spark of difference when discussing Artwork under these terms.

This flows from the "basic medieval setting" point. Archetypes versus non-archetypes is how I'd put. At it's most extreme, Plain Old Human Medieval Fighter versus 3.5 only race, with a prestige class combo. Of course, that's more about the players than the adventure design.
 

Hussar

Legend
New school" thinking is more sui generis, from the gaming rules or settings themselves.

That is, "old school" module design starts with "pirates, ghosts, smugglers, hmmm, what fun can I have with them?". "New school" starts with "half-dragon githyanki are cool, and a psionic one would be a really cool, what other crunch can I bring in" or "what happens if gnome airship crashes in Sharn"?

So, Castle Greyhawk would be "new school" design under this definition, since it is entirely based on a particular setting and no "pirates, ghosts or smugglers" to be found. As would the original White Plume Mountain, Tomb of Horrors, Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, Queen of the Demonweb Pits and quite possibly the entire GDQ series.

Not how I would define "old school".
 

trollwad

First Post
Ah I can see the deconstructionists trying to extend their pernicious influence into fantasy gaming!

Words have meaning even if their nuances can blur into each other at the edges particularly to people of the same "sect" or generation. Words can mean the opposite thing to people of different sects or generations (e.g. try using the word 'justice' around an ardent muslim from the Middle East who is in his 20s, a motivated secular liberal american who grew up in the 1960s and a devout mormon american who grew up under Reagan). As an example of shared meaning in a genre, if I say the genre of "hair metal bands" most people who were conscious in the 80s will instantly share some of the same mental associations with me. We might debate to what extent band x was a member of that genre, but that one tiny three word snippet instantly takes the universe of bands and disqualifies 95% as not hair metal and 2% as definite hair metal with some grey area in between. old school vs. new school is very similar imho.

Per Grodogs point, I generally consider the purest old school to be approximately the period in which Gygax was at TSR and specifically products produced by him, Rob Kuntz, Len Lakofka and the UK team then or currently. Erik Mona writes new school products but is clearly influenced by the old school so he is a new school guy who frequently pays homage to the old school.

Off the top of my head, there are at least six dimensions to "old schoolness": 1) playing a little fast and easy with the rules with the DM being clearly in charge, 2) less railroading (except perhaps in modules that were tournament modules), 3) a willingness by the dm to kill PCs (I note at the personal level that none of my characters have ever died in 3e and 3e doesnt FEEL as dangerous), 4) leaving open area in the modules for the dm to expand upon (eg Vault of the Drow). The fifth dimension is the fantasy influences (look at the suggested reading in the 1e dmg!): old school is influenced by Robert E Howard, Tolkien, Lovecraft and Fritz Lieber while new school is more influenced by the Dragonlance books, RA Salvatore, and computer video games. Read a Howard Conan story (say Red Nails or Phoenix on the Sword) and read an RA Salvatore book back to back some time! The sixth dimension is that old school products are written for adults who like to read but often chaotic, the new school is soul less, if often mechanically far superior. For example, sit with the 1e dmg and the 3.5 dmg side by side some time. Read at random in each. The 1e dmg reads like a novel with adult words and is hilarious in places (anyone remember the table where you might encounter a brazen strumpet!). The 3.5e dmg reads like an Idiot's Guide to Microsoft Excel. I still have no idea how Gygax really meant for 1e initiative to work whereas 3.5e initiative is clear and easy. I've never meant anyone who actually wants to read a 3.5 rulebook; by contrast, the 1e dmg is still an inspirational classic.

Here is a quote from the Gygax thread on enworld with a comment by a gamer and a response from Gygax (the creator of 'Old School') to illustrate the first point:

"I wish the current edition (3e) taught that instead of painstakingly measuring every gold piece of value and making sure it is in the "right range" for a given level of the party.

GAWD!!

Sorry! I'm still adjusting to regaining my DMing freedom now that I have "quit" 3E.

Revel in the newly regained liberty, amigo! Play the way the game form was designed to be played"
 

Ipissimus

First Post
Old School or not, fun is more important than anything else so any labels marketers place on adventure doesn't influence me.

Be that as it may, some of the old adventures have things newer adventures tend to lack. Deadliness, wierd magical traps, chaotic effects that leave your character with three heads, lethal statues and a sense of humor are, sadly, some of the things that seem to have been lost in the majority of published adventures just lately. Little things that added to the joys of exploration that made the dungeon crawl so popular.
 

Remove ads

Top