Old School : Tucker's Kobolds and Trained Jellies

[Hussar]

/snip

Shortly after, a cacophony of players were aghast that he only had a +1 weapon at 7th level, because that's in CLEAR violation of the expected power level, and he should have a long talk with that mean old DM.

But no, there's no such thing as player entitlement.

In any edition of D&D, if someone told you that his 7th level character only had a +1 weapon, would you be at all surprised? I mean, by 7th level in AD&D, at least in modules, it wasn't unusual to find +2 and even +3 weapons. An 8 HD monster in AD&D was considered equivalent of +2 weapons.

So, yeah, it's not unreasonable to think that a 7th level character would likely have something better than a plain +1 weapon.

But, yeah, player entitlement is something totally new...

I'd also point out that the idea of rebuilding your character was absent from old school gaming because there were no mechanics for doing so in D&D until about 2006 with the PHB 2. Partially it was a lack of mechanics, and mostly, IMO, it was because your character after 1st level had pretty much zero options for players. You got whatever you got at level up and that was it.

 

[Hassassin]

So, yeah, it's not unreasonable to think that a 7th level character would likely have something better than a plain +1 weapon.

IMO it is. It is possible that he's only found wondrous items or only shields and armor, even if the magic level of the campaign is the same as "normal" for D&D.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

My multiclass 7/5 cleric/mu doesn't have a magical weapon OR armor. I DID have a +2 weapon, but it got stolen. People sometimes forget how often things were destroyed, lost, or stolen in AD&D. Just because you have a nice shiny sword at 3rd level doesn't mean you'll have it at 4th.

 

[Hussar]

My multiclass 7/5 cleric/mu doesn't have a magical weapon OR armor. I DID have a +2 weapon, but it got stolen. People sometimes forget how often things were destroyed, lost, or stolen in AD&D. Just because you have a nice shiny sword at 3rd level doesn't mean you'll have it at 4th.

Well, considering he can't wear armor, it's not a big shock that he doesn't have magic armor.

Now, would you consider this normal? Or an exception? Because, in any AD&D game I ever played, by the time you had an 8th level group (which is about what level this guy is), you certainly had considerably more than 1 +2 weapon.

How could you not? Standard treasure types give about 15% chances (give or take) for 3 magic items. By the time you've achieved 8th level, you've had several dozen lairs worth of loot. Random tables give about a 25% chance for either magic weapons or armor. Which means that by this point, if you're actually playing by the book, you should be swimming in magic items.

There's a reason paladins are limited to FOUR magic weapons - you're expected to have more fairly soon.

 

[Mattachine]

AD&D games varied widely in treasure, even if using random charts as written.

DMs could potentially pick a lot of treasure-poor monsters, and use many of their own adventures, which might have a lot less loot than the published modules (which often had lots of magic loot).

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Well, considering he can't wear armor, it's not a big shock that he doesn't have magic armor.

Now, would you consider this normal? Or an exception? Because, in any AD&D game I ever played, by the time you had an 8th level group (which is about what level this guy is), you certainly had considerably more than 1 +2 weapon.

How could you not? Standard treasure types give about 15% chances (give or take) for 3 magic items. By the time you've achieved 8th level, you've had several dozen lairs worth of loot. Random tables give about a 25% chance for either magic weapons or armor. Which means that by this point, if you're actually playing by the book, you should be swimming in magic items.

There's a reason paladins are limited to FOUR magic weapons - you're expected to have more fairly soon.

He's multiclass, he can wear any armor. Sure, I had a few items, but I got into a caster duel, almost had the bad guy killed, we tied on initiative, and threw simultaneous hold persons at each other. He saved. I didn't. Not wanting to stick around til the rest of the party arrived, he looted me and fled, hanging onto about 3 hit points. It's still on the agenda to find him once we get the right information gathering spells. He got away with my +2 weapon, a wand of illusion, staff of healing, ring of fire resistance, and wand of illusion.

As of now, I have a few scrolls, and a net of snaring, which I haven't used because I haven't been underwater much.

So, yeah, I HAD plenty of magic items. My point is that in AD&D magic items come and they go. In 3e, getting items stolen or destroyed throws the whole game off because of the WBL rules. a 10th level character who has just lost his gear can't face anything of appropriate challenge level consistently. In AD&D, losing magic hurts, but isn't a huge deal.

 

[Hussar]

AD&D games varied widely in treasure, even if using random charts as written.

DMs could potentially pick a lot of treasure-poor monsters, and use many of their own adventures, which might have a lot less loot than the published modules (which often had lots of magic loot).

Oh sure. But, over time, that will smooth out, presuming you are using the random generation tables. And, the higher level you are, the more likely you're going to get more magic loot.

He's multiclass, he can wear any armor. Sure, I had a few items, but I got into a caster duel, almost had the bad guy killed, we tied on initiative, and threw simultaneous hold persons at each other. He saved. I didn't. Not wanting to stick around til the rest of the party arrived, he looted me and fled, hanging onto about 3 hit points. It's still on the agenda to find him once we get the right information gathering spells. He got away with my +2 weapon, a wand of illusion, staff of healing, ring of fire resistance, and wand of illusion.

As of now, I have a few scrolls, and a net of snaring, which I haven't used because I haven't been underwater much.

So, yeah, I HAD plenty of magic items. My point is that in AD&D magic items come and they go. In 3e, getting items stolen or destroyed throws the whole game off because of the WBL rules. a 10th level character who has just lost his gear can't face anything of appropriate challenge level consistently. In AD&D, losing magic hurts, but isn't a huge deal.

So, basically, this is the exception, not the rule.

OTOH, I totally agree with your last bit. Wealth in AD&D wasn't really needed because there were so few presumptions built in. A fighter without magical gew gaws is pretty much just as effective as one with - AC's are so poor that he's hitting most of the time anyway. And, yeah, tying character wealth to expected power makes things a lot more presumed.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I don't think it is the exception. That's the 2nd time we've had our gear stolen. And even 30 years ago, it seemed to happen now and then. Not often, but I don't think I ever got a character very high without losing our stuff at least once along the way.

 

[JonWake]

Ah, but you see, because it is random, it is not guaranteed. You might just roll poorly, and even if you do roll well, you might end up getting a Wand of Wonder instead of the Holy Avenger +5 you always wanted. You weren't entitled to anything, but you hoped for some things. It made those victories sweet and the defeats bearable.

 

[Sunseeker]

Ah, but you see, because it is random, it is not guaranteed. You might just roll poorly, and even if you do roll well, you might end up getting a Wand of Wonder instead of the Holy Avenger +5 you always wanted. You weren't entitled to anything, but you hoped for some things. It made those victories sweet and the defeats bearable.

Yeah, but the attitude that you should get it is what's in question here and that isn't new in the slightest.

I think it's probably better to argue that entitlement issues are culture-wide rather than a result of a particular edition. I think you'll find that since 1980, entitlement issues have risen in all aspects of life, not just gaming. I don't think this is wholly an issue you can lay at the feet of 4e.

This also depends largely on your players. Regardless of edition there are always people who feel they're entitled to things, and there are people who don't. Hence a 4e game can have players who are fine with getting nothing, heck even happy about it. And a 1e game can also have players who think they should have X, Y and Z.

My players don't expect anything. Why? Because I'm up front with them and tell them not to. If they DO get something, they're happy because I usually take the effort to make it useful to someone in the party, and also because the alternative to 1 is ZERO. If your players are expecting something other than what you intend to give them, this is a communication issue, not an edition issue.