Old School : Tucker's Kobolds and Trained Jellies

[Incenjucar]

Entitlement issues are as old as old people and as young as today's youth whenever today is. That said, the most stereotypically entitled group alive today is the Baby Boomer generation, so I wouldn't go blaming the 80s.

 

[pemerton]

In 4e as played by the book (and without inherent bonuses), acquiring magic items with enhancement bonuses is as integral to PC build as gaining new hp at a new level.

No one thinks AD&D players assert wrongful claims to entitlement by rolling their dice when they gain levels. Ditto for 4e players who want items.

Now perhaps it is bad design to have one element of PC build (namely, items) dependent on decisions under the purview of the GM rather than the players. The idea of wishlists is to ry and bridge this problem with the design, but they're not perfect as such a device.

The analogue, in 4e, of AD&D magic items - ie rewards purely under the purview of the GM - are artefacts.

I'd also note that, in the Preface to the AD&D PHB, Gygax notes the importance of being neither too stingy nor too generous in magic items. AD&D certainly wasn't written under the assumption that magic item gain was a purely optional part of the game. The difference from 4e wasn't in the expectation that there would be items, but rather in their relationship to PC build, and hence the design rationale for putting item acquisition under player or GM control.

 

[Scribble]

4E doesn't ask you to make your decisions based on that kind of information. Those specific details don't inform action resolution. (Not that any version of D&D ever asked this, or was explicit about it, though 3E made an attempt through a plethora of modifiers.) You can describe your PC's action in that way, but the game doesn't care if you do or not; the description doesn't affect the game's economy.

Ah- Ok I see what you're saying, and yeah I would agree the rules themselves don't require this info. Do you have an example of a game that does? I'm not sure I can think of any that I've played that get to this level of detail about an action.

Do you feel it would be better for the game to determine these ideas, rather then the players? (And common sense?)

 

[Hussar]

I don't think it is the exception. That's the 2nd time we've had our gear stolen. And even 30 years ago, it seemed to happen now and then. Not often, but I don't think I ever got a character very high without losing our stuff at least once along the way.

Ok, let me rephrase the question.

Your group is around 8th level right? Now, of the group, how many characters, including your own, have no +1 weapons at all currently?

And, just as another question - what do you mean "we" had our gear stolen. In your story, only your character got his lunch money taken away.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Ok, let me rephrase the question.

Your group is around 8th level right? Now, of the group, how many characters, including your own, have no +1 weapons at all currently?

And, just as another question - what do you mean "we" had our gear stolen. In your story, only your character got his lunch money taken away.

I don't have their character sheets to check, but I'll guess from memory. The druid is currently naked and imprisoned somewhere (deck of many things), I'm pretty sure the monk has no magical weapon (not a big deal for him), I'm not sure about the others, but I'd guess there's a +1 weapon or two floating around. As for 'we", we had some of the stuff from a dungeon on another plane, but it disappeared when we left the plane, and a greedy bastard thief we rescued made off with a ton of gold and several unidentified magic items we had crammed in a bag of holding. Took us a while before we could train after that. He's still on our "to do" list. We've also had a few characters die and get replaced. The new pcs don't start with any magical gear. Only the monk, druid, and my pc are the original characters. We had a paladin eaten by some kind of a plant and only the bone (and I think a ring) didn't get digested.
Now, you may say this is an extremely harsh campaign, I say it's standard fare for adventurers. Ours is not a low magic campaign, I'd say it's about average. But getting magic and keeping magic is a whole 'nother story.

 

[Mattachine]

In any case, the thread asked about whether creativity should be brought back to D&D.

I contend that creativity has always hinged on the playing group, and the level of comfort the group has with the rules.

For every every artist that works best with a blank canvas and palette of many colors, another is most creative when commissioned to paint a particular subject with a variety of constraints.

The new edition could satisfy these varying types of creativity by providing options for low-rules games, rules-heavy games, and something in between. I don't think the base should be the simplest, most free-form game. I think the base game should be the one a plurality of players is interested in--modules could build up or subtract from there.

 

[LostSoul]

Ah- Ok I see what you're saying, and yeah I would agree the rules themselves don't require this info. Do you have an example of a game that does? I'm not sure I can think of any that I've played that get to this level of detail about an action.

Some indie games do. I think I used to play Star Wars d6 like this at times, but it's been a long time.

Do you feel it would be better for the game to determine these ideas, rather then the players? (And common sense?)

The players.

 

[JohnSnow]

Codified solutions do, however, provide guidelines.

For instance, if some character actually had a power to cover a given situation, then that is the best case scenario. Other players may attempt something similar, but it wouldn't be as good (the specialist does it best, others may try).

The 4e DMG certainly discusses this, and the 4e DMG2 has a whole section on adjudicating stunts in combat.

Where?

 

[Mattachine]

The section of the DMG2 on "terrain powers" specifically expands upon p.42 and provides examples of performing stunts in combat.

Also, the 4e DMG discusses that the DM makes rulings and can create house rules that make the game more fun for his group. The advice is consider what you are doing, let the players know, be consistent, and be willing to change things again if they don't work out. That advice is in the 4e DMG.