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D&D 5E On the healing options in the 5e DMG

Hussar

Legend
From 2nd edition PHB.

Hit points - a number representing 1. how
much damage a character can suffer before
being killed, determined by Hit Dice (9.u.).
The hit points lost to injury can usually be
regained by rest or healing. 2. how much
damage a specific attack does, determined
by weapon or monster statistics, and subtracted
from a player's total.

Damage - the effect of a successful attack or
other harmful situation, measured in hit
points.

From 1st edition PHB.

Conatitution: Constitution is a term which encompasses the character’s
physique, fitness, health, and resistance. Since constitution affects the
character‘s hit dice and chances of surviving such great system shocks as
being changed by magic spell or resurrected from the dead, it is of
considerable importance to all classes. Constitution scores of above a
certain number are necessary for becoming certain sub-classes of
characters. Effects of constitution are given on the table below.
It is of utmost importance to understand that a character’s initial
constitution score is also the maximum number of times the character can
be raised from the dead/resurrected, and that each such revivification
reduces the character’s constitution score by 1. Although a character’s
constitution can be restored to its former score, or even raised above this
number, by magical means, this in no way alters the initio1 score
limitation, nor does such magical change in constitution restore to the
character additional chances for revivification. Thus, if a character has an
initial constitution of 15, he or she can never be brought back to life by a
raise dead or resurrection spell more often than 15 times. Note that a rod
of resurrection is considered the same as a spell of the same sort. The 16th
death is final and irrevocable without use of some other magical means
such as a wish.


Now it's cute that some of you continue to bang on about this but 4th edition did not mimic how HP was looked at and the system was chock full of inconsistencies with regards to the narrative and the math. If you look at the old mechanics only then it looks like HP was mostly a physical thing. Hell, even today your Constitution, which is purely physical, is tied to HP and how much extra you get. The same goes with the definition of damage and HP.

The rules have been one big contradiction since the beginning and 4th edition managed to bring it even more in the spotlight and made it even harder to gloss over.

Wait, what? How did you get that from what you just quoted? The Con quote talks mostly about losing Con due to coming back from the dead and has virtually nothing to do with hit points. The 2e quote says that HP are simply a numerical value for how much damage you can take. It doesn't actually define what damage means. Your quotes don't actually mean what you think they mean.

What is actually true is that HP are largely unchanged in every edition. What changed in 4e was the fact that the game actually took the definition of HP and expanded on it to include non-physical attacks. It is no more inconsistent than any other application of HP.
 

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MechaPilot

Explorer
Now it's cute that some of you continue to bang on about this but 4th edition did not mimic how HP was looked at and the system was chock full of inconsistencies with regards to the narrative and the math. If you look at the old mechanics only then it looks like HP was mostly a physical thing. Hell, even today your Constitution, which is purely physical, is tied to HP and how much extra you get. The same goes with the definition of damage and HP.

The rules have been one big contradiction since the beginning and 4th edition managed to bring it even more in the spotlight and made it even harder to gloss over.

As others have already pointed out, where the contradictions of HPs came to prominence really differs based on one's individual perspective. HPs have been inconsistent for me from the first day that I realized the following:

If a weapon is a lethal weapon then its maximum damage must logically be the imposition of death, and yet PCs can survive taking maximum damage and still be alive.

In at least one edition, PCs with Constitution penalties to HPs naturally heal to maximum HPs faster than those characters with a Constitution bonus to their HPs.

Cure "Light" Wounds is the name given one of the lowest level healing spells, and yet to a first level character (and most non-classed NPCs) that spell has the potential to bring a character from zero HPs to full HPs. Also noteworthy is that Cure "Light" Wounds can heal an amount equal to the maximum damage of some lethal weapons (which, again, should logically be death).

HPs utterly fail to model any kind of physical harm short of death. Sure, you just took an arrow through your shoulder or forearm, but go ahead and swing your sword with that arm like a boss because that's how physical injury actually works, right.

Also, "cute?" Yeah, that's not condescending at all.
 

pemerton

Legend
I will always favor internal consistency and causality over verisimilitude. I can believe in a world which follows different laws of physics, but I cannot (seriously) buy into a world that is internally inconsistent or that isn't restricted to purely in-game causality.

If that means someone can take fifteen arrows to the face before falling down (as an extreme example), then that is infinitely preferable to most of those arrows missing because we chose to narrate it that way.
How do you know that a character took fifteen arrows to the face except that you choose to narrate it that way. Nothing in the resolution mechanics tells you that the arrows hit the face, the arm or indeed caused tiring ducking and weaving - indeed, that is the whole crux of the discussion!

When you played D&D and HP did indeed equal meat how did you handle wounds?

<snip>

I think I might could buy hit points as meat if we talk about some of the subsystems you guys used to make that actually mean something.
D&d models, and always has modeled, physical injury using a separate set of mechanics (penalties in the proliferation of optional crit mechanics and specific traps in modules, ability damage in 3e) than hp.
I personally find that if damage mechanics are meant to correlate to particular injuries, they need to impose penalties, or send some other mechanical signal that a particular part of the body has been struck and hurt.

In Rolemaster, crit results tell you what part of the body is injured (eg "slash to side cuts deep, -10 to all actions"). The healing times for these penalties tend to be days, weeks or months, depending on severity. Magical healing, exept at very high levels, speeds healing but is not generally instantaneous.

Bleeding is measured in concussion hit loss (generally from 1 per round to 5 per round, depending on severity). Bleeding also inficts a penalty until staunched (generally -10 per point/rd of bleeding). These bleeding rates tend to be unrealistically rapid, but do generate a sense of urgency around blood loss.

When concussion hits have been lost equal to 25%, 50%, 75% or 100% of the Body Development bonus, then a -10, -20 or -30 penalty is suffered, or unconsciousnes results. When further hits equal to CON have been suffered dying commences, death from concussion hit loss then takes place in a further CON-determined number of rounds. Fatal crits genrally specify their own time until death. Concussion hits heal at one per 3 hours, or 1 per hour when resting.

As well as the sense of particular body parts being hurt - generated by penalties - and the sense of being badly beaten up - generated by penalties for concussion hit loss - there is also a sense of urgency around healing, because of bleeding, time-until-death rules, etc.

I don't know of any hit-points-only system that has this sort of mechanical detail attached to it. But the first version of wounds/vitaity that I know, which is Roger Musson's "How to Lose Hit Points and Suvive" in an early-80s White Dwarf, did have this sort of stuff. As wounds are taken equal to 25%, 50% or 75% of CON a penalty to fighting etc is suffered of -1, -2 or -3 and there is a 5%, 10% or 15% chance to suffer a mortal wound. A mortal wound kills in 1d4 rounds (minutes) if active/fighting, or 1d12 rounds otherwise, and can be cured by a Cure Serious Wounds spell or similar.

It's not as detailed as RM - he doesn't have a hit location system, for instance, but suggests one as a possibility - but it still has the elements of penalty and the possibility of urgency via mortal wounds.

If the GM is telling me that my PC has 15 arrows in the face, but nothing in the mechanics suggests that s/he is having any trouble seeing, talking, lifting up a visor, etc, that is pretty jarring!
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
From 2nd edition PHB.

Hit points - a number representing 1. how
much damage a character can suffer before
being killed, determined by Hit Dice (9.u.).
The hit points lost to injury can usually be
regained by rest or healing. 2. how much
damage a specific attack does, determined
by weapon or monster statistics, and subtracted
from a player's total.

Damage - the effect of a successful attack or
other harmful situation, measured in hit
points.

First off, awesome. It's always cool to see quotes from the older texts.

Secondly, all those quotes say is "damage is measured in HPs and arises from potentially harmful situations." Nowhere does it state that HP loss must include any meat damage, nor also does it state the amount of a character's HPs that must correlate to meat damage.

And that's a good thing because it allows DMs a greater range of flexibility in how they want to describe the effects of things in game. If a DM wants to say an arrow attack that does six damage is an arrow through the leg, a cut on the side of the leg, a simple gouge in the armor, the energy spent avoiding or deflecting the arrow, or some kind of divine grace that stops the shot she can.


From 1st edition PHB.

Constitution: Constitution is a term which encompasses the character’s
physique, fitness, health, and resistance. Since constitution affects the
character‘s hit dice and chances of surviving such great system shocks as
being changed by magic spell or resurrected from the dead, it is of
considerable importance to all classes. Constitution scores of above a
certain number are necessary for becoming certain sub-classes of
characters. Effects of constitution are given on the table below.

Note: I've cut the bulk of the definition because that part relates only to limits of resurrection, and I've corrected your spelling mistake.

I'm sort of perplexed by the posting of this quote. I don't think anyone is arguing that the Constitution score is not as described in what remains of the quote. Of course, there is no reason why someone couldn't see the fitness aspect of Constitution's contribution to HPs as being the fitness required to continue to protect oneself in combat. At some point, after deflecting and evading blows left and right one will eventually succumb to fatigue and be unable to parry or evade when it counts. It's an interpretation that is equally as valid as the meat contribution perspective.

Again, it all comes down to the range of narrative descriptions that a DM is comfortable with using.
 

GameOgre

Adventurer
Guys if we keep going over and over the same things we will get nowhere. We all know some people like to use Hit Points as meat and some don't. Both sides can copy/paste stuff all day and keep debating about it till 9th edition comes out.

What I was really hoping for was for one of the meat guys to post how hit points as meat changed the game. To be honest if they did use hit points as meat in meaningful ways I would think that was cool as all get out.

I love the idea of that!

Maybe for each quarter of your total hit points you received a penalty to AC,THACO,saves and movement! Did they Sew Wounds? That reminds me of Hackmaster and THAT game was totally cool! Did they use custom critical hit tables with "Lose a random Limb"?

I love stuff like that!

I'm happy playing D&D the way I always have but I would pull up to gaming table that used rules like that in a heart beat!

There is a lot more than one way to have fun playing rpg's!

I want to read about them!


Also I wanted to add that although I always used hit points in this way(not meat) I knew plenty of people who did and even at my table, often people used them like that when dealing out damage to monsters or npc's.

Thousands of times people would yell out"I chop his arm off!" or "I decapitated him!". Heck even I used it that way towards the end of a fight. "You beat past his block and run three feet of steel into his stomach!"

I don't think either side has a cut and dry winning hand here. Yes, hit points always (in my opinion) meant more than just physical wounds BUT then there were tons and tons of examples and rules that seemed to point the other way.

I myself ignored the things I didn't enforce my point of view or at best, scratched my head and said "This is so contradictory!"

I also ignored minute long combat rounds (we used 10 second ones)and a whole slew of other rules that got in our way.
 
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MechaPilot

Explorer
Guys if we keep going over and over the same things we will get nowhere. We all know some people like to use Hit Points as meat and some don't. Both sides can copy/paste stuff all day and keep debating about it till 9th edition comes out.

What I was really hoping for was for one of the meat guys to post how hit points as meat changed the game. To be honest if they did use hit points as meat in meaningful ways I would think that was cool as all get out.

I love the idea of that!

Maybe for each quarter of your total hit points you received a penalty to AC,THACO,saves and movement! Did they Sew Wounds? That reminds me of Hackmaster and THAT game was totally cool! Did they use custom critical hit tables with "Lose a random Limb"?

I love stuff like that!

I'm happy playing D&D the way I always have but I would pull up to gaming table that used rules like that in a heart beat!

There is a lot more than one way to have fun playing rpg's!

I want to read about them!

I am also FAR more interested in hearing about new things than I am in constantly reiterating that every edition has inconsistencies, that reasonable people can come to different conclusions when reading the same text because of the conceptual context they put it in, that abstract HPs are good because they enable a wider variety of DM narration, and that there is no right way to play as long as you're having fun.

All of those things are quite true, but I remain sick of reiterating them over and over again and would love to hear about some new stuff.
 

Sailor Moon

Banned
Banned
It's actually easy to imagine HP as mostly meat. The problem with the people who think it's absurd are the same people who explain it like two people just sit there and pound each other with their weapons. Knicks, scraps, bashes, hits on armour, hits on shields, hit's of magical buffs, faking with the blade only to hit with the pommel, bash with the shield, etc...
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
Plenty of people played HP=mojo in 2E and 3E, if these boards are to be believed. The only One True Way we want is Any Way That doesn't Exclude.

If 4E and 5E mechanics exclude the idea of HP = meat, then those editions are guilty of One True Way-ism. (And while I would agree that 4E is quite guilty, I would argue that there's enough room in 5E to play it either way.)

One way you could possibly handle this in 5e, which was also a way to handle this in 4e if one wanted to, is to say that you can't spend HDs without a healer present. Due to the abstraction of HPs, it's very easy to narrate the recovery of HPs from spending HDs/Surges as "the cleric heals you."
 

pemerton

Legend
I always used hit points in this way(not meat) I knew plenty of people who did and even at my table, often people used them like that when dealing out damage to monsters or npc's.

Thousands of times people would yell out"I chop his arm off!" or "I decapitated him!". Heck even I used it that way towards the end of a fight. "You beat past his block and run three feet of steel into his stomach!"
I narrate this way in 4e too, when it comes to NPCs and monsters - particularly when they drop to zero hp. (And Gygax notes the contrast between character hit points and most creature hp in his DMG.)

For NPCs/monsters, the imperatives aren't the same - in the typical combat they don't act as often or as long as the PCs (because they are getting beaten up on), and if they heal at all it all happens off-screen. So there is no pressure to track injuries, penalties etc.
 

ruleslawyer

Registered User
Guys if we keep going over and over the same things we will get nowhere. We all know some people like to use Hit Points as meat and some don't. Both sides can copy/paste stuff all day and keep debating about it till 9th edition comes out.

What I was really hoping for was for one of the meat guys to post how hit points as meat changed the game. To be honest if they did use hit points as meat in meaningful ways I would think that was cool as all get out.

I love the idea of that!

Maybe for each quarter of your total hit points you received a penalty to AC,THACO,saves and movement! Did they Sew Wounds? That reminds me of Hackmaster and THAT game was totally cool! Did they use custom critical hit tables with "Lose a random Limb"?

I love stuff like that!
This is at the core of my problem with the hp-as-meat crowd, sadly. If you're going to do this then why not have some fun stuff to go with the hp ablation?

Again, I'm not in that crowd so I use a parallel mechanic, but there's no reason why you couldn't pull that mechanic into the hp system given a percentage or threshold mechanic. Personally, I would move to a straight wound-vitality system (physical hp = 1st-level hp + Con bonus + size bonus; vitality = all other hp gains from level etc) and then inflict penalties based on wounds. The nice thing about this is that the WP values get established for each PC at 1st level, so once you have a system it stays consistent through the entire campaign.
 

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