On the marketing of 4E

[billd91]

A couple of people providing high quality feedback were indeed shouted down during the open playtest at paizo.com; some of these people, namely those otherwise frequenting the GamingDen forum, were also vocal about that fact. What isn't true, however, is that all posters providing negative feedback were excluded from the actual feedback circle (as in, them making an impact on the final game).

If we're thinking about the same people, I can think of at least one of them who got the treatment he got substantially because of his posting attitude and tone. The content, divorced of a particularly abrasive posting style, could have generated a far different debate from what ensued.

 

[billd91]

Again I'll ask about the gnome.

Given TSR's history/treatment of the gnome, why was WOTC take seen so offensive? Gnomes WERE a joke.

That's your opinion. Don't expect everyone to share it.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

All that I can say is that I saw more Tieflings and Dragonborn played in the first 5 months of 4E than I saw Gnomes played in 14 years of D&D. 4E also marks the first time I've seen somebody play a Gnome character as anything but a punchline.

I'm sorry if Gnomes in the PHB was sacred to you, but when you combine my experience, other experiences posted on forums, and TSR/WotC's previous treatment of Gnomes, Gnomes being sacred was a real corner case opinion. The opinion that Gnomes needed to be in the PHB simply because they've always been there doesn't outweigh the fact that nobody really played them.

 

[AllisterH]

That's your opinion. Don't expect everyone to share it.

Really,

So when TSR killed off the gnomes in Darksun (and actually used to use that as a point in FAVOUR of selling the setting), said that gnomes don't exist in Brithright and that the Mists refused to take gnomes (and mentioned that gnomes didn't even exist in the Masque of the Red Death setting) this _WASN'T_ an insult to gnome fans?

When Dragonlance and Spelljammer only used the "crazy inventors to be treated as jokes" gnomes and Lantan in the Realms was regularly mocked by even hardcore FR fans/authors as "not really part of the Realms", this was TSR showing gnomes the LOVE?

Wow....if that's appreciation, I hate to see what you call hate.

 

[billd91]

I'm sorry if Gnomes in the PHB was sacred to you, but when you combine my experience, other experiences posted on forums, and TSR/WotC's previous treatment of Gnomes, Gnomes being sacred was a real corner case opinion. The opinion that Gnomes needed to be in the PHB simply because they've always been there doesn't outweigh the fact that nobody really played them.

They're not sacred to me. But I can empathize with people who were insulted or irritated by WotC's teasing and I think I can understand why they were.

 

[Fifth Element]

Context is important. People have been playing gnomes since at least the beginning of 1e and now the race was being demoted from the main PH. Tieflings were being promoted. The ribbing thus becomes colored by teasing on the way up and a kick in the pants on the way down.

You might see that as a demotion, but from my perspective (never having seen a gnome played for anything but a joke), they were promoted in 4E from something that never saw use in my games to a legitimate monster that I can see all kinds of ways to use.

And I think you're reading too much into it. It was ribbing. I don't know why so much more is read into it.

 

[M.L. Martin]

Really,

So when TSR . . . said . . . that the Mists refused to take gnomes (and mentioned that gnomes didn't even exist in the Masque of the Red Death setting) this _WASN'T_ an insult to gnome fans?

(Quote edited to limit it to Ravenloft, the only setting I really know.)

Cite, please? My copy of Domains of Dread says that "Among the demihuman races of Ravenloft, none is more scarce or misunderstood than the gnome," but they are there. Indeed, the DoD description plays up not only their sense of humor, but their love of learning and loyalty to those who have earned their trust.

And Masque of the Red Death is Gothic Horror-style Victorian Earth. No demihumans exist there.

Actually, WotC seems big on selling every new edition as a quantum leap forward--I remember someone from staff (I think it was a designer on the AOL Greyhawk boards, but I wouldn't swear to it) saying he'd never go back to 2E after getting a shot at 3E back when it was in development, and there's anecdotal evidence from William W. Connors that at least some folks were willing to 'fire the fans' back then too.

 

[Drkfathr1]

I've been in marketing for 11 years now, and one thing we've learned, is that no matter how you do something, whether you are right or wrong, its ultimately the customer's perception that matters.

The fact that we're still debating these same issues about the marketing after more than a year proves that.

Regardless of the method of marketing WoTC used, the fact remains they still have the perception among some that the marketing was bad/insulting/etc. (even if the marketing was in fact brilliant, which I'm not necessarily saying)

Is it possible that they could have avoided this perception and still got their message across? Maybe. Hindsight is always 20/20.

I have to admit, I found the marketing to be less than stellar, and at times, I felt some of the insult, but looking back with a slightly different perspective, I can see how I misinterpreted some things.

Surely we can agree that there is/was room for improvement?

 

[AllisterH]

(Quote edited to limit it to Ravenloft, the only setting I really know.)

Cite, please? My copy of Domains of Dread says that "Among the demihuman races of Ravenloft, none is more scare or misunderstood than the gnome," but they are there. Indeed, the DoD description plays up not only their sense of humor, but their love of learning and loyalty to those who have earned their trust.

.

I could've sworn I was remembering rightly that gnomes were NOT taken by the Mists explicitly.

It might just be me mixing up the lore with the discussions I remember from the old kargatane website pre 3e.

 

[Miyaa]

I think what has hurt 4th edition was actually 3.5e. Between editions was a good five to ten year run between editions. Everything was spaced out long enough so that the books, supplements, novels, etc. maintained the customer's interest.

3.5 ruined it in that respect because a whole new quasi-edition was created within three years after the start of 3rd edition. And then, 4th edition emerged about five years after that. For customers who were used to a long stretch between 2nd and 3rd editions this decision for a revised edition must have seeded doubt, as the various editions between the beginner's set and 2nd edition had seeded doubts in TSR's ability to continue the brand.

Now the marketing aspect certainly did not help matters. But you could only do so much to cover or gloss over bad decisions that were made.

But, as Windjammer has so eloquently put it, customer relationship mistakes have made the situation far worse than it could have been. Such mistakes could have killed other companies in other industries.

So really, it boils down to two elements: company decisions and how companies view and treat their customers.