On the State of Digital Aids for D+D/D20/OGL

[soulcatcher]

Funny how since I posted my more detailed ideas/requests right HERE ---the developers have stopped harping about not having enough feedback from consumers...
I don't mean to toot my own horn (I hardly believe I am the only person to ever provide some good feedback in this area). I am just wondering if the developers think any of it is feasible (and if so, then take up the challenge-----or if not, then why not?)

Sorry, I've been busy (we are actually actively working on some changes to the website based on feedback from these threads, we can only work on so many things at once).

So, your feedback line by line (and I'm going to break this into multiple posts based on each section):

CharGen Features:
• Easy to use UI that includes iconic equipping features (as per Baldur’s Gate and 3.0 CharGen)

This is really two separate questions: Easy to use UI, Iconic UI, and I'll address both separately:

Easy to use UI:
We are in discussion on how to make a wizard, and also how to make it so that PCGen can support more then one UI at a time (so that we can experiment, and use feedback to make it easier and more powerful). In principal, I think we may have to split the app into to separate ones: Players Edition and GMs Edition in order to make it easy and powerful at the same time (and sorry, but the GMs Edition will have to be more complex, it's inherent). This will take us some time (realistically at least a year) but I think we can do this. Upshot: Possible

Iconic UI:
It's questionable as to whether most people want this, but we can probably find out if we make it so that the UI can be separate from the rest of the application. That being said, this one specifically is much harder for an open source app. We can write code, we can write docs, and make data, but simply put, good artwork costs money. We have been taking in donations, so potentially we could do something in the future, but for now, this is one area that is much much harder for an open source app to tackle. Upshot: Unlikely for us, possible for others

• What do I mean by easy to use? Tabbed pages that allow one to quickly move from abilities, skills, feats, items, spells.

That is the present PCGen design. I suspect man things we do are right, but it needs to be refined more then wholesale torn apart. We started that process with 5.10, and we'll continue it. I also plan to attempt a character sheet based interface, that lets you click on blank parts of the character sheet, and then that will bring up the wizard for dealing with that specific part of the character. (anyway, that's one idea). Upshot: Possible

• When you level up the CharGen should guide you through the selection of class, feats and skills (though this should also be user-defeatable to allow for funky rule exceptions and stuff)

We don't do this now, we kind of just let you pick stuff here and there, and I do think it's necessary to support that (so that you can alter choices later). I also find that for speed, it's nice to do all the leveling first, then the feats, then the skills. That being said, yes, we do need some sort of wizard, and when our architecture is repaired enough to let us do onw, it's at the top of the list. Upshot: Possible

• Access to all WoTC dataset material and ability to incorporate other datasets (lord I would love to have access to Mongoose’s Quintessential Ranger I+II)

We can't control this. Sorry. We have everything we can have, and give people the ability to add that which we can't. In reality, with the tens of businesses involved, no one group will have permission to everyone's system. The only way I see to resolve this at least partially is to make data entry really really easy. That is something that we are trying to figure out how to do. Upshot: Completely out of our control.

• Ability to create new Prestige Classes and Feats (though the UI---not by coding). Also these PrCs and Feats should be able to alter appropriate statistics (ie BHB, Saves, Spell caster level, supernatural affects, spell-like effects---etc…---I know this one is a tall order)

Our data system can handle this now, and does so pretty well. But you want a UI, and I hear you. Presently our structure does a bad job of making this easy to maintain. From time to time, we have working UIs for data, but they always fall behind. I have ideas how to fix this, and I would like to even see us develop a library of more or less standard abilities, so that you can just select preexisting abilities to assign to say a level or a feat. This one will take time, but it is also a priority for us. Upshot: Possible

• Able to be easily printed out into a concise but comprehensive format (I actually think PCGen does an excellent job with this one---its .html files are darn good)

Nothing much to say here. I think our PDF files, and html sheets are top notch as well. Upshot: We already do it.

• Able to select a small character portrait (or import one). This would become an Avatar that would represent the PC in mapping, campaign management and encounter management

Same here. we already do this. We could probably make the UI for it suck less, but that realy fits more into the above questions. Upshot: We already do it.

 

[iwarrior-poet]

A very thorough response---thank you. Just want to point out that my comments are towards the whole market, not just PCGen. I liked PCGen's implementation of tabs---except I have found it can take a long, long time to switch between them.I think an Iconic UI for equipping would simply make things more fun, and would also appeal to some of the younger players.
Also---I am really looking for a comprehensive solution that incorporates (to some degree) all of the components I have previously mentioned. Again---I can't really complain about PCGen (though I do...human nature I guess)---it is free and powerful in many respects.

 

[soulcatcher]

I'll cover Campaign, Encounter Management and Mapping on this one

Campaign Management:
• Gotta be honest and say that I am not too sure what I am looking for here, since I have seen no good examples of this. I see this component as an overarching piece that ties in everything else. And when I say tie in---I mean rapidly links NPCs to specific places (ie mapping), encounters, treasure and somewhere the ability to tell the story of the campaign and the individual NPC’s. It should keep track of your stable of PC’s, NPC’s, monsters, treasure, planned encounters

So different people will have different answers to this one. My current goal is to make the heavy lifting part of pcgen into a library that can then be included in other applications. I think it's better to have multiple apps that are in a suite of tools then one monster bloated application that tries to do everything for everyone. PCGen does some of this stuff via plugins. Some it does well (I think our initiative screen is awesome), and some kind of sucks. In the end, I think these may need to be separate applications, or at the very least loosely coupled tools that chat with one another over a defined protcol.

• Magic Item Creation---not sure if this would be best here or in Chargen (it should probably be accessible in both)---either way you should be able to create/manage/save magic items.

Once again, the UI may not be the best on it, but you can create pretty darn complex and interesting magic items in pcgen. Sure, sometimes you have to go all the way down to the data level for this, and that suggests to me that we need a generalized "Create and Item" dialog that can do everything the item system is capable of, but our existing magic item system is pretty sweet imho. Upshot: We do this already

Note: I *do* want to add a treasure chest and party loot tool to pcgen so that you can store items that can instantly be moved to a PC in rooms, chests, horses, or in a mysterious black box of "party treasure" that never seems to encumber any single member of the party

• NPC/Monster Creation---again---not sure if this would be better here or in CharGen (although again it should probably be accessible in both). There should be some sort of simplified option for DM’s where you could quickly create the stats of NPC’s/Monsters for a pending encounter, and be able to do it several different ways. For example---the DM could simply select a challenge rating for an encounter----or add that if adhere to a particular terrain, or start with specific critters and ask they either be leveled up, or increased in number to fit a challenge rating…I see this getting done with a series of drop down menus). If a DM wanted to get more specific with a critter---he should be able to start here and then launch into the CharGen.

for us, it depends on what you want out of the tool. We still don';t have random generation. we have kits that can kind of frame out a character for you. Mostly I would say pcgen is good for making your big baddies, or your monsters. bar none I think it's the easiest way to alter the hit dice of a monster, or make your were-beastie (or really any other templated creature) But if you need a small goblin troop, what we do now is too heavyweight. What I think we need to do is make a PCGen powered NPC Generator, and that depends on the architecture changes I keep talking about. Upshot: Possible,

Encounter Management
• Lord, I HATE keeping track of stuff during encounters. I would be looking for something that kept track of rounds, initiatives, buffing spells/conditions, penalties, terrain influences on stats

Initiative in pcgen really is a nice tool. you can have your big baddies, and you can just toss a guy in who has X hit dice. It generates statblocks form your loaded pcgen characters, and you can just click on them to roll almost anything. It's also network aware. I think this probably needs to be it's own application (and it was originally, so it's easy to break out into one again), but once again, that depends on a usable external pcgen library. As for all the penalties, we have a whole system foir managing temporary modifiers. Upshot: we do this now.

• It should be able to load any PC, NPCs, monsters and use my avatar idea (or some other easy to identify icon device) to aid in quick identification

It can load any pcgen pc/npc/monster, but in order to keep screen realestate usable, it doesn't use icons. it could probably easily be altered to do that. but this comes back to our art problem. Upshot: we can write the code, but we have no real access to art.

Mapping
• The key here would be ease of use (like everywhere---but particularly here). I would want something that a 4th grader could use. Drag and drop corridors, caves, doors and the like. It should be able to get more sophisticated if need (and ability on the part of the DM) arose---but generally very, very simple.

Mapping is a whole other problem. We would need a whole extra team to tackle this. I suspect that the best way to solve this is actually to find another open source project doing a mapper, and then join forces. Upshot: Not any time soon for us. Try Dundjinni for now, it fits most of your requirements

• You should be able to make links within the maps---to other maps or to Encounters and/or NPCs|monsters.

If we ever get one, we can look at this part.

Devon

 

[soulcatcher]

A very thorough response---thank you. Just want to point out that my comments are towards the whole market, not just PCGen. I liked PCGen's implementation of tabs---except I have found it can take a long, long time to switch between them.I think an Iconic UI for equipping would simply make things more fun, and would also appeal to some of the younger players.
Also---I am really looking for a comprehensive solution that incorporates (to some degree) all of the components I have previously mentioned. Again---I can't really complain about PCGen (though I do...human nature I guess)---it is free and powerful in many respects.

Yeah, I completely understand, I can really only speak to my project though

Devon

 

[thpr]

Funny how since I posted my more detailed ideas/requests right HERE ---the developers have stopped harping about not having enough feedback from consumers...
I don't mean to toot my own horn (I hardly believe I am the only person to ever provide some good feedback in this area). I am just wondering if the developers think any of it is feasible (and if so, then take up the challenge-----or if not, then why not?)

Okay, since I asked, I'll highlight what I think are the hard points. Most of your points are reasonable, IMHO.

Easy to use UI that includes iconic equipping features (as per Baldur’s Gate and 3.0 CharGen)

Graphics are expensive. I honestly consider this to be a challenge, and will consider it a near miracle if anyone can deliver. Unless a company that already has the graphics (Atari or Blizzard, for example) choose to make such a program, there will not be graphics at the magnitude you are asking for.

Access to all WoTC dataset material and ability to incorporate other datasets (lord I would love to have access to Mongoose’s Quintessential Ranger I+II)

This is out of the developer's control. Access to data becomes a complicated Trademark/Copyright issue. In some cases, it is not only the publisher, because the publisher may have licensed the use of certain items from the original owner. Without pressure on the publishers to make their material available, this cannot be resolved.

In addition, unless you are already at scale (meaning a company with an existing reputation of success), this is likely a chicken & egg problem. Until you can demonstrate finished software with demand to the company, they will likely be unwilling to license information. Large-ish companies are relatively unwilling work with little outfits that want to leverage the larger company's assets, even at a price.

Ability to create new Prestige Classes and Feats (though the UI---not by coding). Also these PrCs and Feats should be able to alter appropriate statistics (ie BHB, Saves, Spell caster level, supernatural affects, spell-like effects---etc…---I know this one is a tall order)

Actually, this is difficult, but should be doable. Speaking in pcgen terms, the UI editors have problems that are rooted elsewhere in the code. To keep the editors up to date (and make them usable, in my opinion), requires fixing other problems first.

Campaign Management:
• Gotta be honest and say that I am not too sure what I am looking for here, since I have seen no good examples of this. I see this component as an overarching piece that ties in everything else. And when I say tie in---I mean rapidly links NPCs to specific places (ie mapping), encounters, treasure and somewhere the ability to tell the story of the campaign and the individual NPC’s. It should keep track of your stable of PC’s, NPC’s, monsters, treasure, planned encounters

This is not one piece of software anymore. Seriously. Almost anything that someone builds in an integrated environment will fail to keep up with individual components that provide significantly better features and usability. I think this even helps resolve the security issue (as a player, I want to be able to annotate the map (and the player-visible campaign outline), too!!!)

The challenge here will be in tying together disparate components. This requires a different skill set than being a pure developer. Likely doable, and I have some further ideas that I need to think about...

NPC/Monster Creation

Doable, but some serious coding time for partial randomization. The randomization with conditions gets very 'emotional' as to what is a 'good' result. This becomes a problem for managing expectations vs. results.

Encounter Management

Can't say I have thought these through very much, but doesn't seem unreasonable.

Mapping

Back to graphics. You want a drag & drop corridor, but does that mean one for stone, one for brick, one for light wood, one for dark wood, one for... well, you get the idea. There are still multiple potential issues that would have to be resolved before this can be properly evaulated. While I suspect I know the graphic detail you want (from the iconic desire in the Character Generator), doing outlines is probably reasonable. Graphics is probably not (witness how expensive some of the graphics packages are for Campaign Cartographer)[/QUOTE]

 

[iwarrior-poet]

Again---thanks for the response. Are you working with a program that is already up and running?

 

[thpr]

Again---thanks for the response. Are you working with a program that is already up and running?

I originally generated RPG-MapGen and I am also a pcgen developer (hope that doesn't disappoint )

Of course, that means PCGen is not without some mapping components if we ever want them... the RPG-MapGen development language and license are intentionally identical. They are, however, at the most basic level, and per Devon's point, it may be better to work with another open source project to actually get this feature.

 

[Mercule]

To who?

:shrug:

Someone competent. It wasn't a real suggestion -- I might agree with the basic idea, but I know it's far more complicated than that.

 

[iwarrior-poet]

Back to graphics. You want a drag & drop corridor, but does that mean one for stone, one for brick, one for light wood, one for dark wood, one for... well, you get the idea. There are still multiple potential issues that would have to be resolved before this can be properly evaulated. While I suspect I know the graphic detail you want (from the iconic desire in the Character Generator), doing outlines is probably reasonable. Graphics is probably not (witness how expensive some of the graphics packages are for Campaign Cartographer)

All I am looking for in mapping is barebones graphics, outlines of rooms, corridors, maybe some generic tables, chairs. I (for one) am not interested in creating maps, printing them out (especially in expensive/runny color ink) and using them for minis. That being said---I know some folks really like that---I just think it would be too expensive and complicated. I would rather just draw out stuff on a battlemat (based on the map I had created on my PC).
Dundjinni is a good example of the good/bad of this area. I tried a demo awhile back. Its graphics are STUNNING, but for the life of me it took waaaaayyyy to long just to create a single room.

 

[Mercule]

Iconic UI:
It's questionable as to whether most people want this, but we can probably find out if we make it so that the UI can be separate from the rest of the application.

I certainly don't want to see it. I much prefer definitive text, versus someone's artistic interpretation of something.

That isn't to say a UI wouldn't benefit from some graphics. Just that it shouldn't be fundamental/overwhelming. For example, RPGX, on "large icon" mode is just too much. Having a small icon is nice, though.